Oathbound Traditions
One of the main arguments I hear from a LOT of people, is about oath-bound traditions....
That is, "keeping secrets."
For some reason, a lot of people look at "secrets," as bad things... I mean, why would you "hide that from me?!?" It must be something *important* so you should tell me!!!
There are some good reasons, such as the privacy of practitioners to keep things under oath.
However, to me, there is really one very important reason that some of the mysteries are oath-bound.. It's not to keep them from getting out... It is to keep them sacred.
Some of the things that are oath-bound are information and rituals. Specific things... Things that if someone knew of before-hand, they may not get as much out of, during a ritual or initiation.
The reason for the secrecy, is so that if someone else wanted to go on the same path... It would be THEIR path. They would experience it for themselves, first-hand, instead of having *my* experience, or a preconceived notion of what they should see, hear, smell, feel, or taste, if I told them about it.
Ritual is about using symbols.. The subconscious mind will pick up on its language (symbols,) in ritual, even if a student, candidate, neophyte, or initiate does not at the time, and change them in ways they won't even recognize. This is even more powerful when there are no preconceived notions going in.
Any thoughts?
That is, "keeping secrets."
For some reason, a lot of people look at "secrets," as bad things... I mean, why would you "hide that from me?!?" It must be something *important* so you should tell me!!!
There are some good reasons, such as the privacy of practitioners to keep things under oath.
However, to me, there is really one very important reason that some of the mysteries are oath-bound.. It's not to keep them from getting out... It is to keep them sacred.
Some of the things that are oath-bound are information and rituals. Specific things... Things that if someone knew of before-hand, they may not get as much out of, during a ritual or initiation.
The reason for the secrecy, is so that if someone else wanted to go on the same path... It would be THEIR path. They would experience it for themselves, first-hand, instead of having *my* experience, or a preconceived notion of what they should see, hear, smell, feel, or taste, if I told them about it.
Ritual is about using symbols.. The subconscious mind will pick up on its language (symbols,) in ritual, even if a student, candidate, neophyte, or initiate does not at the time, and change them in ways they won't even recognize. This is even more powerful when there are no preconceived notions going in.
Any thoughts?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Makoons on -
My traditions are incredibly secret and though some of the things I share with all of you are perhaps more than my contemporaries, I certainly draw a distinct line. I mention in passing my moon ceremonies, but never do I tell anyone who isn't a part of them exactly what goes on. There is also a rule that the women are not allowed to tell their spouses/boyfriends/sons/men in their life what goes on. Its because we all need to have some things sacred to us, and if there's one thing women are encouraged to do it's share...sometimes too much. As people we are constantly giving of ourselves and to not do so (I feel the pressure is especially strong on women) makes you selfish. Having that sacred, secret place to go to just for us helps keep up mentally and emotionally healthy. There's no REASON any one person should have to share all of their secrets except to satisfy the ego of someone else.
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Permalink Reply by Braeden on -
My solitary work is actually very personal, and applying this logic to that path of thought makes a great deal of sense to me...however, applying this logic to a group of practitioners is where all the confusion and hurt feelings come in. I understand both sides, and while I would agree with much of what you have said, there is little comfort for those who would wish to become a part of these oath-bound mysteries in what you have stated here. My personal path is very specific to my beliefs, and assuming I could get others to believe in those things which I have spent countless hours practicing and mulling-over, I would never do that, because I hold these things sacred to me. I can think of no reason why I would start a tradition with the beliefs and experiences I have (and take my word on their being enough crazy things going on in my head to start a tradition), because basically, the person I am and have grown to be with these ideas would feel it inappropriate to do so. I am not now, nor was I ever meant to be a teacher in a direct voluntary way, and though I may go against that grain at times, I feel the solitary path is true to me. That being said, what does that say about a person who creates an entire religion for people to share, or rather selectively release sacred knowledge to others? I don't know that the point I just made isn't moot honestly, I think that Gerald Gardner was a bit (or a lot) of a crazy myself, but I think what I'm getting at is more the foundation of the idea.
Discussion with a great many people, has lead me to believe that Wicca, no matter the foundation of the practice, has spawned an entire tree of religious beliefs for better or worse, and that when considering some of the "best" of these, one must leave behind the old sentiments that founded them. That being said, things like homosexuality in the craft, an escape from sexual objectification into true symbolism, and free wisdom and learning with the right attitude are ideas that are being shared and widely accepted in our community where as they may not have been so widely so in the past. I think the fact of the matter is, that whether we like it or not things will change as I hope many understand, and that change isn't a bad thing but something that should be embraced and allowed to grow. That doesn't mean you all have to go spouting your oath-bound information left and right, but rather that sharing it isn't as strict a matter as you have felt it in the past. This is of course only a something I am applying to group sentiment btw, not to personal work as that truly is sacred to only you many times no matter how similar those experiences often are.
I know I will probably get some flack for that bit up there, but honestly I don't mind, I will say that I don't believe in the truth of oath-bound information. Something created and experienced by humans is not exclusive to one human when it deals with things so universal. We may choose different words to evoke and invoke, may choose a different sequence of events to unlock the knowledge hidden all around us, but we will all learn the same truths, because real truths never change, they are absolute. Those mysteries, mirrored in ourselves, mirrored in the universe, mirrored in the divine, they are a part of all of us, we have only to seek them to see that they are not hidden by any one group, but a part of the weave that makes all things.
If I haven't said it enough, the things mentioned above are about groups, not personal work, I fully agree that having your own personal work is very important, its one of the great things about many of our individual practices. The above however is about groups, oath-bound groups more specifically...yeah groups...you get me?
P.S.- While I will say that there are certain things where you may feel the need of another person is undeniable, I would first ask you to consider what the logic behind that statement is? When all divine lives within us, when it is part of the mundane and the magical, when it transcends the dimensions of space and that which inhabits it, how can we truly feel that there is only one way to reach it? It is as if simply because one sees the end of the journey and chooses to find a way there, that the way they took was the only way they could have taken because there is no other way, when in reality not only is the way a person chooses to get there entirely up to them, but also that when they get to the destination they may have learned a great many different things in the end, though I would agree the end result will always be the same if it is real truth. In laymen's terms, you can achieve the same result with a different method, but it will take a great deal of work and personal discovery to do so...as long as you know that, you have a chance without that oath-bound material, be adventurous, be brave, you will get there!
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Permalink Reply by Strata on -
Brae, I have to disagree. I do not understand your logic at all that group work for some reason is *less* personal than solitary work. Group work can be a profoundly moving and bonding experience for those involved. It is a *very* personal experience *shared* by those involved. Extremely personal, and something at times best kept within the group to protect that experience. Is this so much different from your experience in solitary work?? I have experienced both, and I will have disagree if you say yes.
"while I would agree with much of what you have said, there is little comfort for those who would wish to become a part of these oath-bound mysteries in what you have stated here"
Not sure what you are getting at here? Those that wish to become part of the oathbound trads may seek out training like all the traddies of the past. Where is the issue?
"We may choose different words to evoke and invoke, may choose a different sequence of events to unlock the knowledge hidden all around us, but we will all learn the same truths, because real truths never change, they are absolute"
Why would this only apply to group work?? And not solitary work also??
Brae, I think that you miss the point. It is the *experience* that is important. That is what Shawn is saying. The experience of one trad is not necessarily *better* than another or better than that of a solitary or eclectic even, but it is different and it is unique to THAT trad. There are no hidden *truths* that these oaths are protecting, and I have yet to meet anyone who claimed otherwise. It's the experience. THAT Brae is what oaths wish to preserve, a unique experience.
Braeden said:My solitary work is actually very personal, and applying this logic to that path of thought makes a great deal of sense to me...however, applying this logic to a group of practitioners is where all the confusion and hurt feelings come in. I understand both sides, and while I would agree with much of what you have said, there is little comfort for those who would wish to become a part of these oath-bound mysteries in what you have stated here. My personal path is very specific to my beliefs, and assuming I could get others to believe in those things which I have spent countless hours practicing and mulling-over, I would never do that, because I hold these things sacred to me. I can think of no reason why I would start a tradition with the beliefs and experiences I have (and take my word on their being enough crazy things going on in my head to start a tradition), because basically, the person I am and have grown to be with these ideas would feel it inappropriate to do so. I am not now, nor was I ever meant to be a teacher in a direct voluntary way, and though I may go against that grain at times, I feel the solitary path is true to me. That being said, what does that say about a person who creates an entire religion for people to share, or rather selectively release sacred knowledge to others? I don't know that the point I just made isn't moot honestly, I think that Gerald Gardner was a bit (or a lot) of a crazy myself, but I think what I'm getting at is more the foundation of the idea.
Discussion with a great many people, has lead me to believe that Wicca, no matter the foundation of the practice, has spawned an entire tree of religious beliefs for better or worse, and that when considering some of the "best" of these, one must leave behind the old sentiments that founded them. That being said, things like homosexuality in the craft, an escape from sexual objectification into true symbolism, and free wisdom and learning with the right attitude are ideas that are being shared and widely accepted in our community where as they may not have been so widely so in the past. I think the fact of the matter is, that whether we like it or not things will change as I hope many understand, and that change isn't a bad thing but something that should be embraced and allowed to grow. That doesn't mean you all have to go spouting your oath-bound information left and right, but rather that sharing it isn't as strict a matter as you have felt it in the past. This is of course only a something I am applying to group sentiment btw, not to personal work as that truly is sacred to only you many times no matter how similar those experiences often are.
I know I will probably get some flack for that bit up there, but honestly I don't mind, I will say that I don't believe in the truth of oath-bound information. Something created and experienced by humans is not exclusive to one human when it deals with things so universal. We may choose different words to evoke and invoke, may choose a different sequence of events to unlock the knowledge hidden all around us, but we will all learn the same truths, because real truths never change, they are absolute. Those mysteries, mirrored in ourselves, mirrored in the universe, mirrored in the divine, they are a part of all of us, we have only to seek them to see that they are not hidden by any one group, but a part of the weave that makes all things.
If I haven't said it enough, the things mentioned above are about groups, not personal work, I fully agree that having your own personal work is very important, its one of the great things about many of our individual practices. The above however is about groups, oath-bound groups more specifically...yeah groups...you get me?
P.S.- While I will say that there are certain things where you may feel the need of another person is undeniable, I would first ask you to consider what the logic behind that statement is? When all divine lives within us, when it is part of the mundane and the magical, when it transcends the dimensions of space and that which inhabits it, how can we truly feel that there is only one way to reach it? It is as if simply because one sees the end of the journey and chooses to find a way there, that the way they took was the only way they could have taken because there is no other way, when in reality not only is the way a person chooses to get there entirely up to them, but also that when they get to the destination they may have learned a great many different things in the end, though I would agree the end result will always be the same if it is real truth. In laymen's terms, you can achieve the same result with a different method, but it will take a great deal of work and personal discovery to do so...as long as you know that, you have a chance without that oath-bound material, be adventurous, be brave, you will get there!
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Permalink Reply by Braeden on
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I"m not going to disagree, because I have not stated that there aren't experiences that you can have in a group that are profound and unique, but rather that perhaps you shouldn't weigh so heavily upon these things that it is important enough that you must keep a secret to "protect" these things. And I say that about group experiences, simply because those truths that we find within ourselves, whether shared or not, may be of no consequence to another person, as they are our own truths for a reason.
With the statement about "no comfort", I am really elluding to the fact that it doesn't help one's case in these subjects, when not only is their information not shared, but also that trying to be a part of that sharing, may mean one must uproot their lives to another city and state to do so. This makes the idea far more "shadowy" and "mysterious" when there are only so many of these groups to learn from. Making one's self poor, in order to seek spiritual enlightenment is best left for the the yogis in this economy...
What I was trying to get at with my last bit in there, was really, that: yes you can have these amazing experiences with groups that are altogether profound, but that these things are also possible within ourselves...no group needed. I can't agree that the experience is any more unique than any other experience (as I find that true (doesn't mean right or wrong btw, just true) spiritual experiences often feel the same because they are based on the same foundations in our minds, bodies, and souls no matter your path), or that in reality no matter how unique it may be, that it is truly unique when you share it, but I will say that it doesn't lessen the worth of it either, oath-bound or otherwise. Frankly, I do think that "hidden truths" are the reason people get in such a huff about it. I don't place any importance in it myself for reasons I have explained, but many who have problems it are not taking it for what it truly is, but rather what they believe it to be and what I think many traditional practitioners let it go on as. If someone came out and said that there really were no "hidden truths" other than the ones we all have, than most of this would probably be moot, but I haven't seen a great deal of that denial in the past. Take that as you will, it may be a stab at the kind of people who would seek out this sort of thing and take it into themselves as spiritual, but to me its about having the right things for the wrong reasons. You are preserving the group experience for that sake, not for the sake of some hidden truth that dies if shared, which I totally get.
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Permalink Reply by Alorer (The Gecko) on -
I always thought that being oath-bound aids the Mystery. Not only keeping it sacred but being a part of what makes the Mystery as well. To me the whole "secret" part adds to the Mystery, it alters my perception and feeling of what I am to attain or become a part of. The unlocking of the secret brings about revelation and epiphany, it brings that "AHA!" moment. Indeed, if I were to know things beforehand, it would be boring and possibly less touching and intriguing. Of course, this doesn't mean that lack of secrecy in some things is wrong. Heck, Hellenism which is my religion, is thoroughly open. It doesn't limit the 'magic' it has, it simply gives it a different flavour. ;)
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Permalink Reply by Strata on
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Brae, I think it would help a great deal if you would define what you mean by "hidden truths." I am getting the impression that you believe that Trads are claiming to have some HUGE secret, like the meaning of life, that you can only get through them or like the ONLY way to connect with deity. In my experience, this is not the case. I've never met a Trad who said that their tradition was the only way.
"perhaps you shouldn't weigh so heavily upon these things that it is important enough that you must keep a secret to "protect" these things. And I say that about group experiences, simply because those truths that we find within ourselves, whether shared or not, may be of no consequence to another person, as they are our own truths for a reason."
Again, here you seem to be doing two things. One underplaying the importance of "truths" realized as a group. When a group goes through something profound together it is an incredible bonding experience. It can make you closer than family. You cherish those moments, and have no need or desire to share those experiences with anyone else. This brings us to the second part. Again, Brae, this is about *experiences*. You have no need or desire to share those experiences with anyone else. They mean nothing to anyone who has not been through them. They are yours (groups) why should you have to share them?? And as Shawn said, this would ruin the mystery and the experiences for other seekers.
I could be wrong, but you come across a little jaded about the difficulty of finding Trad training. Why is this a problem? Traditional training is not the only valid spirituality by any stretch of the imaginiation. Trads are not denying anyone communion with the gods or access to a valid spiritual path. However, if you want Trad training you may have to make sacrifices. I think this is absolutely fair. It all comes down to a personal choice, how much is it worth to you?
"yes you can have these amazing experiences with groups that are altogether profound, but that these things are also possible within ourselves...no group needed. I can't agree that the experience is any more unique than any other experience (as I find that true (doesn't mean right or wrong btw, just true) spiritual experiences often feel the same because they are based on the same foundations in our minds, bodies, and souls no matter your path)"
Brae this is a bit of fallacy in logic here. "You can have the same experience by yourself, so you do not need a group" can be turned into "You can have the same experience in a group, so why work alone" And I don't think you understand what I mean by *experience.* I don't mean the end result. That seems to me what you are talking about here. I mean the *experience*, the WAY in which you reach that end result. It is the way that is truly unique for Trads. That is why they are orthopraxis. It is the WAY in which they do things that make them unique, and gives them common, shared experience among all their initiates.
"in reality no matter how unique it may be, that it is truly unique when you share it, but I will say that it doesn't lessen the worth of it either, oath-bound or otherwise."
Brae, have you never had an experience to profoundly personal that you wanted it to be all yours?? That you didn't want to share it with anyone because that felt wrong. It was too personal and to share it would deminish it's meaning to you??
I have. This can apply to group work too. Shared experiences are the best bonding tool there is. And when those experiences are also profoundly personal you do not wish to share them with people who have not experienced the same.
Braeden said:I"m not going to disagree, because I have not stated that there aren't experiences that you can have in a group that are profound and unique, but rather that perhaps you shouldn't weigh so heavily upon these things that it is important enough that you must keep a secret to "protect" these things. And I say that about group experiences, simply because those truths that we find within ourselves, whether shared or not, may be of no consequence to another person, as they are our own truths for a reason.
With the statement about "no comfort", I am really elluding to the fact that it doesn't help one's case in these subjects, when not only is their information not shared, but also that trying to be a part of that sharing, may mean one must uproot their lives to another city and state to do so. This makes the idea far more "shadowy" and "mysterious" when there are only so many of these groups to learn from. Making one's self poor, in order to seek spiritual enlightenment is best left for the the yogis in this economy...
What I was trying to get at with my last bit in there, was really, that: yes you can have these amazing experiences with groups that are altogether profound, but that these things are also possible within ourselves...no group needed. I can't agree that the experience is any more unique than any other experience (as I find that true (doesn't mean right or wrong btw, just true) spiritual experiences often feel the same because they are based on the same foundations in our minds, bodies, and souls no matter your path), or that in reality no matter how unique it may be, that it is truly unique when you share it, but I will say that it doesn't lessen the worth of it either, oath-bound or otherwise. Frankly, I do think that "hidden truths" are the reason people get in such a huff about it. I don't place any importance in it myself for reasons I have explained, but many who have problems it are not taking it for what it truly is, but rather what they believe it to be and what I think many traditional practitioners let it go on as. If someone came out and said that there really were no "hidden truths" other than the ones we all have, than most of this would probably be moot, but I haven't seen a great deal of that denial in the past. Take that as you will, it may be a stab at the kind of people who would seek out this sort of thing and take it into themselves as spiritual, but to me its about having the right things for the wrong reasons. You are preserving the group experience for that sake, not for the sake of some hidden truth that dies if shared, which I totally get.
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Permalink Reply by VLM on
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Just catching up here..
I'm not quite positive what you mean about the experiences, but I wasn't at all inferring that group work was superior to solitary. They are different things.
What I meant, is that a key part of some traditions' group work is the fact that they are oath bound. This preserves the mystery for those who go through. This means that they experience their own truth, and not someone else's truth. It can also have more of a profound effect if you do not know what is happening before it happens.
As far as being unavailable, I think that's a little bit of a misconception.. Granted, you might not have such a thing available to you right now, right where you are, but you could always plan for it in the future.
You could work with some groups long-distance, and travel to them for initiation. You could plan to move some place where there is a group or groups that you are interested in, 5 or 10 years from now.
One of the greatest things about some group work is what it means to a person as an individual.. I personally have to travel a couple of hours each way. Some people travel 6, or more.. I know of a coven that is flying its members from East coast to West coast for initiations..
It's really up to the individual, what they're willing to sacrifice, and I don't think it has any real bearing on why something is oath-bound, outside of "But I want to know the secret too, and I want to know it now." In some traditions, they believe you have to be willing to suffer to learn, after all.
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Permalink Reply by Braeden on
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I get what both of you are saying, but in the end what I am really trying to encourage is that people do find their own path outside a tradition. I wasn't trying to infer that you were saying that group work was better, actually due to my nature I was probably leaning towards my own inference that solitary work is better than group haha. When I was talking about a big secret, what I was saying is that there isn't one, however I was also stating that aside from a select few members of the community that most wouldn't admit that. In fact I think there are some people who would be happy to let others go on believing in some big mystery for the sake of image. That isn't a stab at the two of you however as I believe that you are happy to help others understand that the oathbound material of a tradition isn't truly meant to hurt others feelings for the sake of a secret, but rather a hope for privacy. Lastly, I am going to say it is entirely too inaccessible for those who seek traditional training. I get the whole you have to work for it, but I don't know that I agree with that statement as much when you are already having to work yourself into the group much less move to another city or even state entirely to find ANYTHING (why bother with the questioning that happens in a year and a day when so clearly they won't to join after moving themselves a couple thousand miles to your destination? Seems pretty freakin dedicated to me). I have seen others struggle with that a lot, particularly when there are those who don't have their own means to make training available to them. You can deny that, but it doesn't make their struggles any less true. You can drive 2 hours, what about people who can't drive? You can move to another place 5-10 years down the road, what about those who literally cannot do that for financial reasons? Its not a stretch in today's economy. Not saying that's your fault, but the kind of exclusivity that is fostered by the oathbound group environment doesn't allow for a great deal of expansions to help the network grow, as I think was originally intended by its founders. I am not encouraging giving up group work, but maybe that traditional groups should evolve in such a way to help those who truly cannot take it upon themselves to be a part of that experience.
Okay going to bed now, please read carefully as I have had a bottle of wine and am using a phone to type this out. Thanks for the time, Braeden...
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Permalink Reply by Leisha on -
I think that every person, whether coven trained and initiated or not can or has come up with dozens of reasons why they can't be able to obtain training. There's something about folks who are called to coven/oathbound service, however, that gets them to a state where all excuses that can come up simply aren't acceptable to them, and they end up doing whatever it takes to get what they are searching for. My case--moving 1,000 miles, getting a divorce, switching careers, and living in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the United States for a year to be able to study with a tradition that called to me. I Would Not Advise ANYONE To Do That. (But it's what I needed to do for me.) For those who feel that their excuses are something they can't or don't want to surmount, if the gods want them in their service, they'll make things available locally for the individual...including fulfillment as a solitary practitioner.
In most cases, solitary practitioners engage in their own idea of oathbound behavior--it is very rare that solitary practitioners give out the details of their rites and rituals to total strangers. Many solitary practitioners do not share the fact they are a witch with people they know (family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, etc.). Aside from having an oath in place to remind you not to go flapping your gums, how is a solitary practitioner keeping silent about what they do any different than a coven keeping silent about what they do? Yet I don't ever hear people complaining about those stuffy solitary practitioners who won't share their personal secrets of practice. Something to think about...
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