I don't mean to open a can of worms here, but I just have to ask...

I'm still learning. Let me first say that. And I have a very long way to go. My day and a year has passed but I don't feel any closer to an end of my "seeking" than I did when I started.

However, I do feel pulled and compelled to serve the Goddess. Which one, I don't yet know. I feel a strong female presence around me at all times and it is especially strong when I meditate. I've been urged by some fellow Dianic witches to consider working within the Dianic teachings. I'm eager to learn more; however, I have some issues with the leading coven run by Z. Budapest.

I think its her whole proclamation that she is a 'genetic witch' that threw me for a loop. I have read many of her works and have some great take-aways from it. But I'm wondering if there are other teachers/covens, etc that offer insight into this way of paganism?

I know she certainly has her followers and I really am amazed at her accomplishments. I don't want to offend those here who have followed under her at all. I'm just looking for any tips on other trusted resources that you'd recommend, for the Dianic path.

Thanks :)

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Hi Lisa.

I am sorry but I can not offer any insight into this Z. Budapest lady, I assume thats a pseudonym which always starts the alarm bells ringing with me.

There has been a lot of chat on this site about "hereditary" witches which is what I assume she means by "Genetic Witch". The general consensus which I also agree with is that there is no such thing.

My father was a marine service engineer (he fixed ships,lol) I am an Aerospace manufacturing test engineer, does this mean that I am a "Genetic engineer"? NO, the schooling, the technical apprenticeship and the huge ammount of exams which I took and am still taking means I'm an Engineer.

A friend of mine is a nurse working in an accident and emergency department in our local hospital, if I had a car crash I would not like her 8 year old son to do my 1st aid, I would rather the TRAINED nurse look after me.

Now a coven sister of mine has a little girl, a delightful 7 year old, and she goes on walks with her mother and picks wild herbs, she has a little "table of precious things" in her bedroom (Just like Mummy's Alter) and she helps her mother to make oils and salves etc. She has started her Wichcraft training early, but she will not be a Wiccan until/if she decides to follow that path and gets innitiated into a coven.

If someone tells me they are a "hereditary witch" I always hear the unspoken words after it "I'm a hereditary Witch......Which makes me better and more qualified than you".

As it happens in my fathers family there have always been people with some link to "the Occult", a spiritualist, a medium etc. but my mother and father were Christian and have no links to witchcraft, so am I not a witch? In fact I even heard (on another pagan site, which I am no longer a member of) one young "hereditary" call a very experianced Wiccan a "Mudblood".......dear gods, did her genetics not tell her that that term is from a childs fantasy book??

So, back to your question (Eventualy), I would not become involved with this group, by the sound of your post you are having doubts and that is the 1st and best reason NOT to join a coven.

Is there money involved? I have had a quick look at the website and (I may be doing her a disservice) I would be shocked if there was no fee to join. If there is money involved, run.

There are a lot of covens all over the place, I am sure that you will be able to find one in your area, or at least within a short journey. If you were in the UK I would be able to recommend lots of places to start your search, but whichvox is quite a good web site to start.

In the mean time, vary your reading, read some of the books recomended on here.

And please excuse my ranting :-)



No worries... if you step on people's toes, folks will let you know. :)

As far as the whole "year and a day" thing, getting to the end of it doesn't indicate an end to seeking--rather the reverse, your seeking at that point will have just started. Different people have different ideas of what a year and a day encompasses, too. I have a rather unconventional point of view. I feel that the importance of a year and a day is to make sure you recognize and honor all of the changes that occur in that time frame. That means that you would need to celebrate every esbat and every sabbat to see how it feels for you. If you miss some, then even at the end of 366 days, you still haven't finished a year and a day....it may take two years, five years, or ten years to explore all of those rites.

There's also no need to rush about finding a Goddess to serve--there's a great discussion here (http://realpagan.net/forum/topics/patron-deities-lack-thereof ) about serving the Goddess without needing a name (and not needing to look for a name).

As far as Z. goes, unless you're going to be involved in a coven where she's physically present (at this point I don't believe she leads a coven directly, but I think she's still active/influential in stuff like CAYA and Susan B. Anthony #1), any issues you have with her mindset probably won't be horribly limiting for your participation in different groups. Ultimately, she's just one person with an opinion--no more, no less.

Even within a group or coven, you'll find that people don't agree on everything (and sometimes not on anything!). The trick is to find people that you can develop good rapport with, and then see if the teachings or ethics are something that you're largely comfortable with and that rituals are something that works well for you. So my advice is to just look and see what's in your area regardless of what label they have on them. See if it works for you, and then worry about the label later (if that becomes important to you).

Good luck on the process!

Hey Grayson....not much of a pseudonym, but just a pen name to accommodate American vocal ranges. She's from Budapest originally, and the name Zsuzsanna Mokcsay was just too difficult for Americans to speak. I believe she has legally changed her name, however.

Grayson said:

Hi Lisa.

I am sorry but I can not offer any insight into this Z. Budapest lady, I assume thats a pseudonym which always starts the alarm bells ringing with me.

Thanks Leisha, Not just Americans! my mouth is too full of Welsh sounds to pronounce east European names, and working with a lot of them in my job its a daily challenge (",).

Leisha said:

Hey Grayson....not much of a pseudonym, but just a pen name to accommodate American vocal ranges. She's from Budapest originally, and the name Zsuzsanna Mokcsay was just too difficult for Americans to speak. I believe she has legally changed her name, however.

Grayson said:

Hi Lisa.

I am sorry but I can not offer any insight into this Z. Budapest lady, I assume thats a pseudonym which always starts the alarm bells ringing with me.

Thank you so much, both of you.

Yes, in some text she refers to witchcraft being in her DNA and the way she writes about it, I believe she means the literal sense that witchcraft is passed down from her mother's DNA to her. I also don't believe this is a legitimate claim. However, I did watch a NAT GEO program about a certain type of monkey that has ingrained memory to use certain tools. Even if the young were removed from the parents, the babies knew how to select certain stones and use them in the exact same way as the adults. Scientists believe that this certain monkey species has passed down genetically ingrained knowledge to their offspring.

So, is it possible? Sure, I suppose it is. But it still didn't sit well with me, hence my concerns. And you're right; I won't follow anyone who makes me doubt or feel uncomfortable. There are fees to join that coven and there was an email sent out recently seeking monies to support their effort around the world. Again, I'm sure it's legit and important to her followers but its just not for me.

Leisha, I agree about the year and a day. I feel like I could easily do five + and still find more to absorb. :) I have put a lot of study, thought and meditation for guidance into this past 1 1/2 years. And its been amazing!

Thanks again :)

Hey Lisa, I am in the same thought as you about the year and a day, and I do agree with Leisha's description of it. I have been doing my craft and practices for nearly 5 and a half years and I STILL feel as if I am in my year and a day (in the sense of it being a "seeker of knowledge" thing). However, I do like Leisha's description better that the end of year and a day the seeking begins. :)

I also understand the not sure which patron deity to follow. After posting a discussion and hearing some wonderful feedback (especially from the awesome Leisha), I realized that I was just fine with the Goddess and the God. :) You will realize later on (or maybe sooner than you think, you never know) if you sit well with following a patron from another culture or if you are just comfortable with how you perceive the Goddess. :) So I wish you luck in your search for finding answers to your questions, and this place is a great place to get some good answers.

On the topic of your post, I have read into Z. Budapest's websites and read into what she thinks, believes, and her Witchcraft tradition. Personally, nothing sat well with me, but I couldn't just have a Goddess to follow. I guess I just need that masculine balance there. If you just want to do Goddess-worship, there are ways to go about it other than joining a Dianic coven if the coven makes you uncomfortable. I would join a coven that made me uncomfortable or even made me pay to join. I understand paying for my own materials and contributing to the classes in some way, but not paying to learn. 

I hoped that helped a little bit, and hope you find some of the answers you seek. :)

Hey Lisa,

There are some great take-a-ways from the people who have responded thus far, but I will say I have issues with the Z. Budapest. I do follow her on facebook, but mainly just to see what other ridiculous nonsense she says on a regular basis. This was on her profile just last week:

"When we look at the shameful situation of abuse of women and children in the USA you cannot just think its ONLY the USA. Men abuse because other men look the other way. This is the ancient bond, the male bonding. This makes heterosexuality a health hazard. It creates unhappy people from both sexes. There is no pay off to anybody. It must stop." Z. Budapest.

I wrote a response note that chances are she didn't even care to read. While I respect Dianic witches and they have every right to practice and believe what they will, I don't see how this comment could ever make me want to take her seriously and doesn't do harm to the Dianic witchcraft community. Within one quote she makes heterosexuality out to be dangerous, clearly states that all men do is abuse women within those heterosexual relationships and that other men are more or less "cheering them on", and pulls out the biggest "all men are evil because they are men, and all men are evil" card that ticks me off every single time anyone uses it to coddle women instead of giving them the tools to actually overcome the struggles in their life.

Honestly, I get that her life has been nothing short of walking on landmines, but I don't see how the Goddess (ancient or new) would ever see tearing down the masculine as acceptable and appropriate within her sacred space. The whole idea of removing God from the equation also makes me uneasy, but not because of my inherent heterosexual weakness for being in love with all things "male", but rather because I personally moved away from a male dominated religion not because I hated men, but because I saw nothing I could relate to as a woman (as far as deity forms, even if they were male), and I wanted and have always believed in gender balance within any form of spirituality I've had thus far. I can't take anyone seriously who so quickly cries fowl about all the wrong men do, but allows the sacred masculine to be removed from the sacred space within her own rites and more or less castrates it to make it "better". This is a woman who believes that men are flawed women...you know, I can recall other religions whose extremists views see women as flawed men, so I don't get how reversing the roles makes this okay, and makes this a view point to teach to other young pagan women who may or may not have come from a life of hurt.

There are just way too many red flags when it comes to her and her teachings for me personally. I do know there are some more Dianic witchcraft paths that are more tolerant, like the Mcfarlane path, but for me, I need to see a Goddess be with her God not because its "just the thing to do", but because she loves that other masculine half, and together they share the balance of energy we all see within nature. I'm starting to work with the Goddess Frigga, and home girl would not be having Odin being abusive, I mean, she's fooled him when he has been bad, he knows this, and loves her deeply regardless of this. They share their love, have their life together, and live, and that's what a deity should be showing you and teaching you, their love and their life, with all the aspects of it together without censorship based on gender. Let this feminine presence teach you, but don't close yourself off from reality and your experiences. Best of luck to you.

I wanted to correct something I didn't notice in my response that I wish to fix now. I am past the 15 minute edit mark. XD

"I wouldn't join a coven that made me uncomfortable or even made me pay to join. I understand paying for my own materials and contributing to the classes in some way, but not paying to learn."

Yarrow, I have read her website and found more things that she has stated and written that is along those lines as well, and I got flustered just reading it. I respect witches of any path they take, don't get me wrong, and I respect Dianic witches for their wish to follow just the Goddess. That is their choice and it is respected. I just don't like how Z. Budapest makes men out to be "evil" in a sense and they do nothing but bad to women. She is being judgemental with her words and grouping all men in one category. I know I might be making assumptions, but the assumptions are based on her writings and how they come across. Red flags indeed. Plus, I agree with a majority of what you mentioned. I moved away from the male dominated religion because I needed that balance in my life. Btw, I love your Frigga and Odin example. :) Summed up everything nicely, and I totally agree with that too.

Z is part of feminism as well as Dianic Wicca and is often known for giving out soundbites of man hater tidbits. She also was part of the group at a festival over the summer that denied entrance to trans females only allowing those who were born women into a ritual with no prior announcement about this line so some hurt feelings happened. Some of her early books while a bit too feminist for me have great info otherwise. I tend to be more Goddess centric but not to God exclusion and over time have incorporated more Gods as well as Goddesses into my practices. When i was new to my craft i did work primarily with Goddess alone. I never considered myself Dianic i just had bad experiences with men (and with the patriarchal God of evangelical Christianity) in my personal life that made me shy of male energy. So anyway you can be Goddess centric and not have to be Dianic and of course you can be Dianic and not be in one of the covens Z has power in. Hope your search brings you all you seek!

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