How Old to Participate in Ritual? Samhain conflict!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Lisa on October 9, 2011 at 12:53pm

I started making my kids a part of simple rituals and new practices last year. I just kept it super simple and made it fun for them. Because I'm solitary at this point, we don't partake of group ritual (though I would like to--just a lack of resources/groups in my area). So, we make it meaningful for us. My kids are 12, 8 and 6 and are very intrigued and interested, so I'm lucky that way.

 

Thank you for the book list. I'm always looking for additional materials  :)

 

~Lisa

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Permalink Reply by Albiana on October 13, 2011 at 1:45pm

I am probably in the minority on this subject, but I would suggest not having minors in circle, particularly for Samhain and Beltane rites, given the energy which is at work.

 

Then again, I suppose it makes a large difference, the type of rite you will be doing and if you do intend to bring in a conduit of the seasonal and archetypal energy to your celebration and work.  There is a reason why traddies don't "do work" or initiate minors...and I suspect many non-trad folks share similar reasons for the level of inclusion they use with underage participation.

 

In truth, a lot of the underlying themes of the Craft are not child-friendly.  One needs to be knowledgeable, responsible and capable of affecting changes they have wrought through magical means.....and heck, most kids can't seem to remember if they'd brought their homework assignment in school, if they've let the dog outside recently or if they'd left the light on down the hall.

 

Yes, kids might be given watered-down explanations as metaphors and symbolism that feels innocuous and rudimentary, but the impact of what is being discussed and participated in can often be some deep-seated, heavy, emotionally-laden, impactful adult-consciousness stuff.

 

In the case of Samhain, we are talking about death.  Death as a part of the recurring cycles of nature, of humanity of loved ones of all things. 

 

Can that be "sorta translated" for a younger audience....yes and no, in my opinion....and do you really want to expose kids as young and impressionable and easily confused as 5 and 8 years old to such things?  I'm not sure.  I'm not a parent though, so take that as you will.

 

To me, much of the Craft is adult content, adult themed and requires a level of life-experience to grok and maturity to deal with and ingest.  And I'm not just referring to the "traddie stuff" here...but look at the fact that you are actively participating and communing with deity, not merely "watching" as you would in other religions. 

 

Can a pre-pubescent child handle that?  Heck, in some cases, even young adults cannot. 

 

To me, there should be some ability to not only recognize the themes being portrayed in ritual settings as having an echo in one's own life, but the ability to find this echo for ones self.  I don't personally believe a child is capable of making that sort of mental connection.  I also don't believe a child fully grasps the energetic content of things until later in life. 

 

Can a 5 yr old and an 8 yr old carve a pumpkin and be taught about harvest festivals?  Sure.  Can they be shown in nature how the garden veggies are dying and decaying, how the leaves are falling off the trees and becoming compost to renew the soil for next year's planting?  Yep.  Can kids be told that great-grandma just died and the family has to attend a wake and see her lying in a box that will go into the ground?  Yeah....but do they fully get that these are the same things...and that in ritual we're not talking about merely people and tangible objects, but gods and all that we know as matter doing this sort of force-form exchange of roles?

 

I'm of the opinion that answer is no.  Kids need time to be kids.  Intro to basic ideas and concepts of paganism can happen in other ways besides having them stand in circle while you and your partner or covenmates call in "the big juju" that those children can only feel washing over them without being capable or responsible enough on their own to react or interact with it in an appropriate manner.

 

Let the little ones enjoy youth and freedom and trick-or-treating.....save the intro to magic and ritualism for a time when they can make the conscious decision to choose their participation and are mentally and emotionally ready to adopt all that decision entails.

 

My two cents,

Albiana

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Permalink Reply by Megan Herrod on October 13, 2011 at 2:42pm

If I were you...

 

Plan a solitary ritual for Samhain and tell both your children that they are welcome to join, if they choose... and if not they are free to do something else.

 

That is if YOU are comfortable with it. If you plan on calling on the departed... I would NOT do that if the kids are joining you. No matter your intentions, calling out to those spirits could "creep out" little ones who may not completely understand. Also, if you feel that this Samhain is going to be really emotional for you... keep that in mind... Will your kids have a positive experience if you seem "upset"- probably not.

 

If you can make it a happy, festive celebration of the harvest season, and honoring our ancestors... then that would be appropriate too! Also, you could have a Samhain "feast" dinner with them, and have everyone make a wish for the coming winter, and tell a favorite story or toast about a lost loved one... then you can follow up with a ritual circle after the kids go off to bed. That way you can have a deeply spiritual ritual "grown up"... when you can do the more productive work you have planned, AND your kids can be a part of your pagan expression of the holiday! Best of both worlds!

 

Good Luck!

-Megan

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Permalink Reply by Aletria on Thursday

Albiana said:

I am probably in the minority on this subject, but I would suggest not having minors in circle, particularly for Samhain and Beltane rites, given the energy which is at work.

 

Then again, I suppose it makes a large difference, the type of rite you will be doing and if you do intend to bring in a conduit of the seasonal and archetypal energy to your celebration and work.  There is a reason why traddies don't "do work" or initiate minors...and I suspect many non-trad folks share similar reasons for the level of inclusion they use with underage participation.

 

In truth, a lot of the underlying themes of the Craft are not child-friendly.  One needs to be knowledgeable, responsible and capable of affecting changes they have wrought through magical means.....and heck, most kids can't seem to remember if they'd brought their homework assignment in school, if they've let the dog outside recently or if they'd left the light on down the hall.

 

Yes, kids might be given watered-down explanations as metaphors and symbolism that feels innocuous and rudimentary, but the impact of what is being discussed and participated in can often be some deep-seated, heavy, emotionally-laden, impactful adult-consciousness stuff.

 

In the case of Samhain, we are talking about death.  Death as a part of the recurring cycles of nature, of humanity of loved ones of all things. 

 

Can that be "sorta translated" for a younger audience....yes and no, in my opinion....and do you really want to expose kids as young and impressionable and easily confused as 5 and 8 years old to such things?  I'm not sure.  I'm not a parent though, so take that as you will.

 

To me, much of the Craft is adult content, adult themed and requires a level of life-experience to grok and maturity to deal with and ingest.  And I'm not just referring to the "traddie stuff" here...but look at the fact that you are actively participating and communing with deity, not merely "watching" as you would in other religions. 

 

Can a pre-pubescent child handle that?  Heck, in some cases, even young adults cannot. 

 

To me, there should be some ability to not only recognize the themes being portrayed in ritual settings as having an echo in one's own life, but the ability to find this echo for ones self.  I don't personally believe a child is capable of making that sort of mental connection.  I also don't believe a child fully grasps the energetic content of things until later in life. 

 

Can a 5 yr old and an 8 yr old carve a pumpkin and be taught about harvest festivals?  Sure.  Can they be shown in nature how the garden veggies are dying and decaying, how the leaves are falling off the trees and becoming compost to renew the soil for next year's planting?  Yep.  Can kids be told that great-grandma just died and the family has to attend a wake and see her lying in a box that will go into the ground?  Yeah....but do they fully get that these are the same things...and that in ritual we're not talking about merely people and tangible objects, but gods and all that we know as matter doing this sort of force-form exchange of roles?

 

I'm of the opinion that answer is no.  Kids need time to be kids.  Intro to basic ideas and concepts of paganism can happen in other ways besides having them stand in circle while you and your partner or covenmates call in "the big juju" that those children can only feel washing over them without being capable or responsible enough on their own to react or interact with it in an appropriate manner.

 

Let the little ones enjoy youth and freedom and trick-or-treating.....save the intro to magic and ritualism for a time when they can make the conscious decision to choose their participation and are mentally and emotionally ready to adopt all that decision entails.

 

I'm with you of than Albania.. our Coven is adult based and at Sabbats because Sabbats are celebrations, no work is conducted and cowen people are invited, however , cakes and ale or wine are present.. at Esbats no outsiders and no children that is time  for our work.

we do however have people who conduct child friendly activities.

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Permalink Reply by Leisha -- Back Home on Thursday

I'm in line with Albania's thinking on this. Speaking as a parent, children need to be children, and the Craft is a path for adults. There are some seasonal activities that you can do with your children around this time of year so they feel involved, but I would leave them out of ritual. 

 

Practical considerations first and foremost, are you willing to let your five-year-old (or even an eight-year-old) swing a sharpened knife or other "pointy object" around at you and your family unsupervised? What about handing them a lit candle, or having them light the self-igniting charcoal (which ignites because it has the same stuff as used in gunpowder) for the incense? 

 

Then there's the emotional considerations. For instance, for Beltane, have you talked in detail with your children about sex yet? Are they going to be comfortable when you explain that some of the items they're handling are symbolic phalluses? (I know at age 8, I would have either been grossed out by the idea or had a huge case of the giggles!) Are you okay if they go to school the next day and tell in graphic, and likely exaggerated, detail about what they did?

 

For Samhain, how comfortable are they with the idea of death? Have they ever been to an open-casket funeral or otherwise seen a dead body? By age 9, I was comfortable with the idea of death, but younger than that I think it would have been a bit rough. And attending a ritual where there could be physical manifestations of beings that might be disturbing in appearance? Knowing the kind of "everyday" things that bring up nightmares for kids, stuff that can be disturbing to adults might be way too much for a child.

 

Every parent needs to figure out what to do with their kids...and certainly celebrating seasonal changes outside of circle can be a great way to introduce your children to the wonder of the world around them. But for me, formal ritual is not a place where my daughter will go until she's well into her teen years, unless it's such a watered-down ritual that there's not much reason for me to attend, aside from chaperone. ;)

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Permalink Reply by Vigdisdotter on Friday

I have two criteria when it comes to involving children in ritual.

-Interest.  If they aren't interested, or are actively worried about it, then don't involve them.  Don't force it, ever.  It has to be a choice, it has to be because THEY want to.

 

-Old enough to behave themselves.  If they are running around, being disruptive, or worse playing with candles and other dangerous behaviour, then don't do it.

 

If the answer is yes to both of them above, then go for it.  if the answer is no to one (or both) then leave them out of it and do your own thing.  Get a baby sitter if needed.

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Permalink Reply by SullenGirl on Sunday

Albania,

 

Thank you for your "two cents".  ;)  I have decided to involve my children in ritual.  I considered your points and while I find them valid I also consider the fact that children are involved in every other type of worship from Islam to Catholicism.  Heavy themes are definitely present there also and children do physically participate from performing a Dua'a in Arabic in a Mosque or participating in Reconciliation, taking the Eucharist and serving the Priest in Catholicism.

 

While I will not force anything on my children, I have decided to let them participate, observe, or come inside and play the Wii.  :) 
Albiana said:

I am probably in the minority on this subject, but I would suggest not having minors in circle, particularly for Samhain and Beltane rites, given the energy which is at work.

 

Then again, I suppose it makes a large difference, the type of rite you will be doing and if you do intend to bring in a conduit of the seasonal and archetypal energy to your celebration and work.  There is a reason why traddies don't "do work" or initiate minors...and I suspect many non-trad folks share similar reasons for the level of inclusion they use with underage participation.

 

In truth, a lot of the underlying themes of the Craft are not child-friendly.  One needs to be knowledgeable, responsible and capable of affecting changes they have wrought through magical means.....and heck, most kids can't seem to remember if they'd brought their homework assignment in school, if they've let the dog outside recently or if they'd left the light on down the hall.

 

Yes, kids might be given watered-down explanations as metaphors and symbolism that feels innocuous and rudimentary, but the impact of what is being discussed and participated in can often be some deep-seated, heavy, emotionally-laden, impactful adult-consciousness stuff.

 

In the case of Samhain, we are talking about death.  Death as a part of the recurring cycles of nature, of humanity of loved ones of all things. 

 

Can that be "sorta translated" for a younger audience....yes and no, in my opinion....and do you really want to expose kids as young and impressionable and easily confused as 5 and 8 years old to such things?  I'm not sure.  I'm not a parent though, so take that as you will.

 

To me, much of the Craft is adult content, adult themed and requires a level of life-experience to grok and maturity to deal with and ingest.  And I'm not just referring to the "traddie stuff" here...but look at the fact that you are actively participating and communing with deity, not merely "watching" as you would in other religions. 

 

Can a pre-pubescent child handle that?  Heck, in some cases, even young adults cannot. 

 

To me, there should be some ability to not only recognize the themes being portrayed in ritual settings as having an echo in one's own life, but the ability to find this echo for ones self.  I don't personally believe a child is capable of making that sort of mental connection.  I also don't believe a child fully grasps the energetic content of things until later in life. 

 

Can a 5 yr old and an 8 yr old carve a pumpkin and be taught about harvest festivals?  Sure.  Can they be shown in nature how the garden veggies are dying and decaying, how the leaves are falling off the trees and becoming compost to renew the soil for next year's planting?  Yep.  Can kids be told that great-grandma just died and the family has to attend a wake and see her lying in a box that will go into the ground?  Yeah....but do they fully get that these are the same things...and that in ritual we're not talking about merely people and tangible objects, but gods and all that we know as matter doing this sort of force-form exchange of roles?

 

I'm of the opinion that answer is no.  Kids need time to be kids.  Intro to basic ideas and concepts of paganism can happen in other ways besides having them stand in circle while you and your partner or covenmates call in "the big juju" that those children can only feel washing over them without being capable or responsible enough on their own to react or interact with it in an appropriate manner.

 

Let the little ones enjoy youth and freedom and trick-or-treating.....save the intro to magic and ritualism for a time when they can make the conscious decision to choose their participation and are mentally and emotionally ready to adopt all that decision entails.

 

My two cents,

Albiana

 

Ab

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Permalink Reply by SullenGirl on Sunday

Leisha,

 

Thank you for your input.  I appreciate everything you wrote and will put everything in perspective while nailing down the details from handling candles and lighting incense.  I'm the parent who questions whether or not I'm overprotective so be sure they will not be put in harms way. :) 

 

-SG
Leisha -- Back Home said:

I'm in line with Albania's thinking on this. Speaking as a parent, children need to be children, and the Craft is a path for adults. There are some seasonal activities that you can do with your children around this time of year so they feel involved, but I would leave them out of ritual. 

 

Practical considerations first and foremost, are you willing to let your five-year-old (or even an eight-year-old) swing a sharpened knife or other "pointy object" around at you and your family unsupervised? What about handing them a lit candle, or having them light the self-igniting charcoal (which ignites because it has the same stuff as used in gunpowder) for the incense? 

 

Then there's the emotional considerations. For instance, for Beltane, have you talked in detail with your children about sex yet? Are they going to be comfortable when you explain that some of the items they're handling are symbolic phalluses? (I know at age 8, I would have either been grossed out by the idea or had a huge case of the giggles!) Are you okay if they go to school the next day and tell in graphic, and likely exaggerated, detail about what they did?

 

For Samhain, how comfortable are they with the idea of death? Have they ever been to an open-casket funeral or otherwise seen a dead body? By age 9, I was comfortable with the idea of death, but younger than that I think it would have been a bit rough. And attending a ritual where there could be physical manifestations of beings that might be disturbing in appearance? Knowing the kind of "everyday" things that bring up nightmares for kids, stuff that can be disturbing to adults might be way too much for a child.

 

Every parent needs to figure out what to do with their kids...and certainly celebrating seasonal changes outside of circle can be a great way to introduce your children to the wonder of the world around them. But for me, formal ritual is not a place where my daughter will go until she's well into her teen years, unless it's such a watered-down ritual that there's not much reason for me to attend, aside from chaperone. ;)

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