RealPagan- Paganism for the Real World

Gods and How They are Treated

OK this isn't another discussion on how you understand deities. We have plenty of those. Instead this is a discussion on how the Gods, no matter how you see them, are treated, dealt with and used.

I have seen many people say stuff like "I'm doing a ____ kind of spell, I'll call upon _____ deity" or "x God/dess will surely help" or "I'll evoke ______ God/dess to do what I wish" or anything along those lines.

What's your views on this?

Here's my view: Gods are not tools, they are not to be picked by lists to do as we please. Gods are not going to be bossed around by us feeble humans. We cannot compel Gods to do things for us. If you do not believe or have a relationship with a deity or deities then you have no right to work with them or to even think they will help you. We cannot know the Will of the Gods - we cannot claim they *will* help us. They can very well refuse and let us fret and writhe weakly.

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Permalink Reply by Callisto on July 12, 2011 at 13:12

Given his will was for Ares to do as his bidding, it appears not to have worked out that way.

Or do you equate showing up for the purpose of knocking him into next week with, to quote Charlie Sheen, "WINNING!"?

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Permalink Reply by Alorer (The Gecko) on July 12, 2011 at 14:40

Well, Apollon indeed does not move the Sun. That's Helios' work. :P

I agree with both Callisto and Leisha for the most part. To elabourate on Leisha's post, for me, Gods are entities that maintain Nature (the Cosmos). Yes, that means "Helios moves the Sun" and "Zeus hurls thunderbolts" but in a much more realistic sense. No, there isn't literally a chariot dragging the Sun nor a muscly, bearded man throwing thunderbolts like he came out of the God of War games. However, Helios IS the entity maintain the Sun and its properties, Zeus IS the entity maintaining thunderstorms etc.

Here I feel I should tackle something Frater said: God has turned from created to a creator. I don't believe in creation or Gods being creators. So in my case, that would have no meaning whatsoever. ;)

Callisto: Believe me I understand why Hellenic Recons act that way. I don't like it either way but at least I know *why*. It's also one of the gazillion reasons I'm NOT a Recon Hellenist. :P I have to say though, most Recons tend to ignore the fact that Magic was avidly practiced in ancient Greece. Not *witchcraft* - Magic. They bound Gods through effigies, they used binding tablets to harm/restrain enemies, they used herbs for more than medicinal reasons etc etc. Did they call it witchcraft? Hell no. But it can be recognized as such, yet the term was not socially applicable.

In any case, when referring to my path and developing system, I stress this as much as possible: it is *influenced* by the "old ways", it is *based* on ancient Hellenic practices. However, it's a path of today, it's modern, it's new and it's valid and Hellenic. :)

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Permalink Reply by Callisto on July 12, 2011 at 15:00

Most likely it's simply my telling of it but it was the working failed because Ares didn't do whatever he was suppose to do, not just a matter of attending. That was my understanding anyway.

I don't know if it counts as conjuring if said entity or deity ignores you the first time then shows up with the intent to pound the person into the ground rather than with the intent to comply. Maybe it does in a general sense. I mean sure, he managed to get a rise out of him. But to me that says Ares could have just as easily ignored him a second time too had he chosen to, but opted to backhand him instead. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the guy's will that Ares come and beat him like he owned him money. LOL

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Permalink Reply by Callisto on July 12, 2011 at 15:18

I'm of course interested in hearing different POVs on this and other topics. I don't know if it merits a debate, which wasn't my intent when commenting before. The point of my original post was that too frequently people claim interaction with deities without any practical working knowledge. This is especially nonsensical in a religious context when someone also claims to be continuing "the old ways" without actually knowing anything about the old ways or the deity/ies.

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Permalink Reply by Leisha on July 12, 2011 at 15:22

I like to point out to any "followers of the old ways" that the old ways include a lack of electricity and indoor plumbing. We may do old rites from time to time (if we have them, and depending on your definition of old), but we're not really following the "old ways", IMO.

Callisto said:

I'm of course interested in hearing different POVs on this and other topics. I don't know if it merits a debate, which wasn't my intent when commenting before. The point of my original post was that too frequently people claim interaction with deities without any practical working knowledge. This is especially nonsensical in a religious context when someone also claims to be continuing "the old ways" without actually knowing anything about the old ways or the deity/ies.