Gods and How They are Treated
I have seen many people say stuff like "I'm doing a ____ kind of spell, I'll call upon _____ deity" or "x God/dess will surely help" or "I'll evoke ______ God/dess to do what I wish" or anything along those lines.
What's your views on this?
Here's my view: Gods are not tools, they are not to be picked by lists to do as we please. Gods are not going to be bossed around by us feeble humans. We cannot compel Gods to do things for us. If you do not believe or have a relationship with a deity or deities then you have no right to work with them or to even think they will help you. We cannot know the Will of the Gods - we cannot claim they *will* help us. They can very well refuse and let us fret and writhe weakly.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Makoons on -
When I think of communication with the Gods (or "Spirits", as we know them) it is less *telling* them to do something for us and more us *asking* for their power, guidance, and knowledge. Any Anishinaabe person approaching a Spirit and saying "Yo Spirit, find me a job" would be S.O.L. If you're asking for something you must remember you are ASKING for it. Many times we have a feast, but we always leave an offering when asking for help. And much like the "spells" of Witchcraft, if you don't put any physical effort behind it nothing is going to happen.
Spirits are helpful when respected, but do not suffer fools. I've been to a Shaking Tent, a powerful spiritual experience in which a medium is possessed by multiple spirits to bring you messages and answers from the Spirit World. One of the men there told me that at times people will ask the Spirits about selfish, petty things such as the winning lottery numbers. I recoiled in horror and asked if they ever got an answer and he said "no...and usually will get nothing else later, either." Meaning the Spirits shut off their communication from there-on.
The advice you get from the Spirits is not to be taken lightly. You don't ask for help and then not take the advice. I've done it, and it usually results in stagnation spiritually and lessened communication. If you're not going to listen, why should They keep talking?
So from my point of view the Spirits or Gods must be handled with a great deal of respect and the hierarchy must be acknowledged. I am not on par with them, they are not my "friends."
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Permalink Reply by Alorer (The Gecko) on
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I agree more or less save for the last part. I do see them as friends. It's a vital part of Hellenism, to respect Gods but not cower in fear before them or see them as too beyond us. I have a close relationship with my Gods and they are my friends, in varying degrees and ways. Still, respect is mandatory. After all, regardless of the relationship and intimacy, they are way more powerful than I am. They are Gods. ;)
Makoons said:When I think of communication with the Gods (or "Spirits", as we know them) it is less *telling* them to do something for us and more us *asking* for their power, guidance, and knowledge. Any Anishinaabe person approaching a Spirit and saying "Yo Spirit, find me a job" would be S.O.L. If you're asking for something you must remember you are ASKING for it. Many times we have a feast, but we always leave an offering when asking for help. And much like the "spells" of Witchcraft, if you don't put any physical effort behind it nothing is going to happen.
Spirits are helpful when respected, but do not suffer fools. I've been to a Shaking Tent, a powerful spiritual experience in which a medium is possessed by multiple spirits to bring you messages and answers from the Spirit World. One of the men there told me that at times people will ask the Spirits about selfish, petty things such as the winning lottery numbers. I recoiled in horror and asked if they ever got an answer and he said "no...and usually will get nothing else later, either." Meaning the Spirits shut off their communication from there-on.
The advice you get from the Spirits is not to be taken lightly. You don't ask for help and then not take the advice. I've done it, and it usually results in stagnation spiritually and lessened communication. If you're not going to listen, why should They keep talking?
So from my point of view the Spirits or Gods must be handled with a great deal of respect and the hierarchy must be acknowledged. I am not on par with them, they are not my "friends."
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Permalink Reply by Makoons on
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Well one need not be "God-fearing" as some sects of Christanity believe, it is more personal than that. Not ALL spirits are like that. Some are, though, and its important to figure out who you're speaking with. I have two Spirits in my life who follow me in my dreams. One I sense I need to treat with the utmost respect. She is an elder and a teacher. The other is much younger and more of a trickster. My relationship with them is totally different as is the way they treat me and the things they expect.
I guess I would more say that you need to know the Spirits as individuals but ultimately respect them. Like you say, they have more power than us and we have to recognize that regardless of their personalities. Which CAN make it difficult when you're visited by a particularly irritating spirit (I had a male ancestral spirit follow me around as a teen and MAN he was a pain in the a$$). Just didn't want you walking away thinking our relationship is always that impersonal!
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Permalink Reply by Strata on -
Steffie, YES!
Ok.. Pet Peeve... the molding of Deity. i.e. The pick and plug method and the fitting deity into YOUR way of doing things. This comes, for me, from seeing extensive use of the Celtic Pantheons in this way. I've actually had someone tell me, "I've been reading the list of gods and goddesses in that back of DJ Conway's 'Celtic Magic' and Cerridwen seems cool. I think I'll make her my goddess." What? Wait?...excuse me??... ok have fun with that.
Maybe my view on *picking* deity is a little biased based on my own personal experience, but I did not *pick* my matron, The Morrighan. She very much chose me, to the point of my trying to *run* and her knocking me on my perverbial tush. And though we now have an amazing relationship, I would never think to demand anything of her. I know better.
In addition, as stated before. You do not "mold" deity to fit into YOUR way of doing things. For example, if YOU are love and light in your path, the Tuatha de Danann pantheon is probably not the right one for you. Do NOT try to force these deities to be all love and light with you. They are not. The Celts were a warrior people and a tribal people. Their deities reflect that.
In my opinion, if you do not respect deity for what THEY are... and not what YOU want them to be, how can they be beneficial to you.
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Permalink Reply by Muse (Deja Vodou) on -
Amazing and eloquent post. I agree with you a 110 percent. The Gods are not children or servants to be ordered around. They are powerful entities to be honored, respected and served by those that have a relationship. Ive seen too many people 'use' the gods only when they have need of them. And to me that is plain dispect and quite frankly IMO..counterproductive to spiritual growth.
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer Renee on -
I agree with you whole-heartedly Stef...I do not as of yet have a specific patron or matron God/Goddess...I feel a great reverence for that process and will not take it lightly. I admit I am drawn to the Norse Gods, mainly for the fact that much of my heritage is German and I am more familiar with them due to the fact that my husband is Asatru and shares a great deal of his knowledge of that Pantheon with me. I have decided to stick with a generalized vision of God/Goddess until I receive inspiration from a specific deity...I do feel that it is my responsibility to educate myself on the various Pantheons whether I ever really work with them or not...I do believe that all Deity deserve respect and reverence...
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Permalink Reply by Alorer (The Gecko) on
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Agreed! That's why I mentioned "varying degrees". My relationship and behaviour with Hekate is completely different than with Artemis. Just like us, Gods and spirits have different personalities which must be addressed accordingly.
Makoons said:Well one need not be "God-fearing" as some sects of Christanity believe, it is more personal than that. Not ALL spirits are like that. Some are, though, and its important to figure out who you're speaking with. I have two Spirits in my life who follow me in my dreams. One I sense I need to treat with the utmost respect. She is an elder and a teacher. The other is much younger and more of a trickster. My relationship with them is totally different as is the way they treat me and the things they expect.
I guess I would more say that you need to know the Spirits as individuals but ultimately respect them. Like you say, they have more power than us and we have to recognize that regardless of their personalities. Which CAN make it difficult when you're visited by a particularly irritating spirit (I had a male ancestral spirit follow me around as a teen and MAN he was a pain in the a$$). Just didn't want you walking away thinking our relationship is always that impersonal!
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Permalink Reply by Lark on -
I agree that this "plug and play" attitude towards the Gods is very irritating and to my mind disrespectful of Deity. They are not simply another spell ingredient and should not be treated in that fashion. I think to some extent those that do so have not yet come to understand them as real and potent beings. They still see them in sort of a D&D-ish sort f way without truly having any sort of spiritual connection at all.
Of course as a Gardnerian when I am in circle I work with the Lord and Lady who are the tribal Gods of the Wica.
But in the Trad in which I first trained it was expected and required that each Initiate develop a personal relationship with a God AND a Goddess. These were the Deities with whom they worked on a regular basis and these were the Deities that they would call upon when they had need of aid from the Gods. This was not a case of simply picking names at random because they seemed interesting. Rather it was about doing the deep inner work to hear the calling to connection with those specific Deities. My personal Deities are not the same as the ones I work with in Gardnerian practice, and I spend time regularly to keep that connection between us firm.
The way that I explain the importance of having a deep personal relationship with the Gods is to use the example of a small child who wants help with something. Is that child more apt to get the help they are asking for if they go up to a random stranger on the street and pull on their coat tails, or will they do better going up to their mother or father and asking for help? I believe it would be the latter. And that is why we need to develop a relationship with some particular Gods, whether it be one or two or a specific pantheon.
-Lark-
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Permalink Reply by Callisto on -
When I was a dedicant, our HP & HPS told a cautionary tale of someone who decided to invoke Ares for some sort of working. I don't recall the specifics but he didn't get the results he wanted, Ares apparently having been a no show. So he copped an attitude and commanded Ares to manifest. That was his last recollection. He regained consciousness several hours later. LOL
This is what the ancient Greeks would call hubris and why witchcraft and magick are not included in Hellenic reconstructionism. It's also partly why there's an inclination among reconstructionist paths in general to distance themselves from being seen as part of the Neo-pagan community.
There are pros and cons to any practice, but definitely one of the negatives exhibited among Neo-pagans (among, not all) is a nearly total lack of emphasis on anything beyond personal want, including when it comes to interacting with the gods. There's a contradiction: the claim to be practicing "the old ways" even though a) their personal practice is often self-crafted and usually bears no resemblance to any established path, past or present and b) they don't concern themselves with learning anything about any of the actual, literal old ways. "My patron deity is...." yet it's not uncommon to find someone who has never read the related mythology or other classic literature or to crack open scholarly texts regarding the ancient worship of those deities. People who "use" deities commonly have little to no idea what is sacred to the god, his/her symbols, what offerings are pleasing, what are things they dislike. Personal gnosis, invention and interpretation supersedes all else.
No, the gods are not tools and one can only wonder what it is that those who act in this manner have actually connected with, assuming they've connected with anything at all.
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Permalink Reply by Leisha on -
Disagree. ;)
Fr. Perseverabo said:
We know that Appolo doesn't move the Sun across the sky and that Jesus didn't really come back from the dead.
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Permalink Reply by Leisha on
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Well, I disagree that belief in the gods doing the things of the gods is superstition as well.
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Permalink Reply by Leisha on
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Hopefully I can get five minutes in between phone calls to reply to the original message.
For me, most deities only exist tangentially in our lives the way we view our lives. Yet, as in the example above, we'd all be in a world of hurt if Apollo wasn't moving the sun across the sky. I don't honor or worship or focus on Apollo in my life, just as I don't have a personal relationship with all the humans in my life who make it possible for me to live. Because I don't have a direct relationship with him, I wouldn't go around asking him for favors. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with honoring him for a job well done every now and then, in the hopes he'll keep up the good work. If I honor him enough, I could certainly put in a request here and there, too.
On the other hand, just as there are humans in our life who provide benefit to our lives that we have relations close enough to ask for favors, building a close relationship with certain deities does mean we can call on them to ask for assistance, guidance, blessings, and so on.
Certainly in neither of these scenarios would a deity be plug-and-play, nor would that deity be a tool. They're their own entities. I respect those boundaries.
© 2015 Created by Steve Paine.
