gay marriage????????
so a question i have been pondering lately is: if you can have an interfaith marriage and still have the same legal rights as a "normal" marriage, then how come there is such a controversy over gay marriage? why shouldn't they be allowed to get married and have the same legal rights? and who says marriage has to be between a man and a woman? im not gay, but i just think its wrong to tell someone they cant get married because the person they love is the same sex. in my eyes thats like telling a woman they cant vote. why not? whats wrong? who is it hurting? or why cant gay couples adopt? i want to know how everyone in the pagan community feels about this issue!!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sangraal on -
I don't support gay marriage. I support equal-rights marriage. So if one relationship dynamic can be legally married, everyone should have that same, equal right. And if one cannot, none should have it... :)
That being said, the only people that have a problem with gay marriage are folks that have problem with gay people. And 95% of that time, it's a byproduct of religious bigotry. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Like a favorite video of mine says, if keeping marriage straight is to preserve the institute of marriage, why don't they make divorce illegal...for straight people. :)
Every argument against it has a major flaw. At the end of the debate, it always goes back to because the bible/koran says so. Totally flawed.
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Permalink Reply by Whind Ryder on
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ok yea that makes sense! i like the idea of equal rights marriage. and i totally agree with you that every argument against it has a major flaw. im really glad i found this community! it has offered me so much more then what i grew up with.
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Permalink Reply by Crystal on -
I'm with Sang, I support equal-rights marriage, not just gay marriage. I believe if 2 people love each other and they're ready to make such a strong commitment to one another then why stop them? They have to live with themselves, not you (generalized you). I have really strong emotions about justice and gay rights anyway, but those emotions stem to all walks of life for me. I have a really hard time understanding why some close-minded people feel that they're so important that they can judge and dictate the lives of others, even sometimes complete strangers.
When I was growing up Christian, I was Southern Baptist and then when my parents got divorced my Mom married this "Charismatic" man, she then adopted his belief system and because I lived in their house, I had to go along with it. The church we were going to had a lot of "outreach ministries", some that I really enjoyed, like helping the homeless: We'd take big church buses all around town and pick up the homeless people sleeping in parks and bring them to church and give them fresh clothes, blankets, hot meals. I loved that, I always felt good helping those in need.
One day, our Youth Group had a trip planned to go minister to people on the street, I decided to go but just to work a free food booth, that gave out hot chocolates and good noms. Imagine my surprise when we pull up to an area that was known to have a lot of homosexual people, and the people start trying to "save the gays". I was mortified, I had never been so embarrassed in my life. Even as a Christian, I believed in equal rights for people. After all, this man named Jesus preached love, and told us not to judge. I called a friend to come pick me up and that was the last thing I did with that Youth Group ever.
I said all that to say this: I am not Anti-Christian, I respect the rights of other people, so long as those rights don't infringe on the rights and free will of others. In my opinion, the biggest issue the homosexual community encounters in regards to "same sex marriage", is the fact that the people pushing against it are using the Bible and Christian ethics and morals to standardize what THEY believe is the "right way to live". Until you can really have a full separation of church and state in regards to laws, and the making/amending of said laws, same sex marriage and those seeking the rights and legality of it are going to keep hitting the brick wall that they've been hitting for years.
*steps down off her soap-box*
Sorry to explode, just opinionated :p
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Permalink Reply by Grayson on -
As a British comedian said "I think gays should get married, why shouldn't they be miserable like the rest of us".
(",)
Just don't tell my guy that I think its a good idea!!!
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Permalink Reply by Sutra on -
Crystal, it was almost as if I was reading my own story regarding your youth group experience. I had similiar experiences in my CYO.
Sang, as always has hit the nail on the head. Every single argument against gays getting married crumples under scrutiny. It all comes down to religious bigotry or plain old homophobia. I don't think you'll find many people here that do not believe everyone should have equal rights. (I can think of one)
There are a few movements actively trying to change the laws. One that impresses me though I don't follow it myself, is a group of people straight and gay (from states allowing gay marriage) that are boycotting marriage until the right is given to all. It has a sense of nobleness about it but I don't see it changing many minds. Niether does changing your facebook status or pic. If you want to help, write to your represetives and ask your friends to do the same. The topic will only get more political backing if the politicians are nervous about being elected or their purses effected.
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Permalink Reply by Seth (Apple) on -
I have to agree with Sang on this one. Equal rights, not just gay marriage. And I am gay.
I'll keep my personal thoughts about marriage in general to myself.
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Permalink Reply by Strata on -
Everyone else has touched on the "equal-rights marriage" so I will touch on the why inter-faith marriage is ok and not "gay marriage" in the eyes of the Christian Right. Cause let's just say it, the Christian Right is where the majority of the hassle is coming from.
Interfaith marriage is not ok with the majority of the Christian Right. According to this group, a person should only marry someone within their own faith, which of course should be Christian. ;) The issue is that the Bible also says that someone being of another faith is not grounds for divorce, because being with you might bring them to Christianity. So, I think interfaith marriage is easier for them to accept because the Christian might "save" the other. They cannot use the same justification for "gay marriage" because both partners are "living in sin."
I, of course, personally see nothing wrong with homosexuality or equal-rights marriage. But many in this country are raised on the belief that it is an abonimation, Sodom and Gomorrah and all. They actually believe it is their duty in the eyes of their God to oppose it, or else risk losing favor with that God.
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Permalink Reply by Onyx Blackraven on -
I'm with everyone on this issue. I see no reason why two people (any two people in creation) can't get married. We have legalized gay marriage here in New Hampshire and all are welcome. Come on up. :D
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Permalink Reply by Jennifer on -
Okay..I am going to play 'devil's advocate' here...so what happens when gay marriage becomes legal, and it undoubtedly will, does that mean that Christian religions will no longer be able to preach to their congregations that homosexuality is a sin and what if Christian ministers do not wish to perform homosexual marriages? I am all for gay marriage, but honestly my biggest fear I have is the protection of religious rights not being upheld, regardless if I agree with them or not...can a minister be thrown in jail for teaching that homosexuality is wrong? Well yes, it happened in Canada. I have a feeling that so many of those who constantly cry separation of church and state will sing a different tune...I think we will start to see more cases come against religious organizations for so-called hate crimes just for teaching a religious view. I would love nothing more that homosexuals to enjoy the marriage union just as anyone else but what will it be at the expense of? Religious freedom? I would love to hear some other viewpoints on this.
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Permalink Reply by Strata on
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Jennifer? Why world Christina ministers not be allowed to preach against homosexuality?? I think you are making a drastic leap and a huge fallacy in logic here. They preach out against alcohol now, which is legal. Last month in my town they preached on the streets about the evils of selling liquor by the drink because we were voting on allowing it in our county. They would have continued to preach out about it had it passed. They preach out against inter-racial marriages, which is legal now. They have refused inter-racial couples admittance into church houses.
Every minister can decide who they will and will not conduct a marriage ceremony for. They do this now. When I married my ex-husband we had to lie to him, well my ex-husband did. (not something I am particularly proud of) he had to tell him that he was a Christian because this minister refused to marry interfaith couples. He claimed it was against the teachings of the bible. We also had to give a statement of repention to him because I was pregnant or he would not have married us.
Homosexual couples would simply have to use a minister that had no issue with their marriage. It would not infringe upon the rights of ministers or religious institutes.
*EDIT:: Also, preaching is not a hate-crime. Never has been. It's protected both under freedom of religion and freedom of speech. It is only a "hate-crime" when there is a crime committed. i.e. an act of violence. And an act of violence committed because someone is homosexual is a hate-crime now. So nothing would change about that. Refusing to conduct a marriage is not a hate-crime.
Jennifer said:Okay..I am going to play 'devil's advocate' here...so what happens when gay marriage becomes legal, and it undoubtedly will, does that mean that Christian religions will no longer be able to preach to their congregations that homosexuality is a sin and what if Christian ministers do not wish to perform homosexual marriages? I am all for gay marriage, but honestly my biggest fear I have is the protection of religious rights not being upheld, regardless if I agree with them or not...can a minister be thrown in jail for teaching that homosexuality is wrong? Well yes, it happened in Canada. I have a feeling that so many of those who constantly cry separation of church and state will sing a different tune...I think we will start to see more cases come against religious organizations for so-called hate crimes just for teaching a religious view. I would love nothing more that homosexuals to enjoy the marriage union just as anyone else but what will it be at the expense of? Religious freedom? I would love to hear some other viewpoints on this.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel O'Neill on -
Well at the risk of sounding a wee bit redundant But I concur with Sangraal an also at the risk of sounding a bit rainbow and moon beamish but if you love some one and you really want be with that person for life then I think there is no bloody reason why they should not. After love knows no bounds right.
Now this all great! but sadly I see pigs flying an fish driving cool little fish cars in my life time first before the nice right wing ,an even some good folk on the left I might add pull there heads out of there rectums with one big o'l pop sound an stop having some one else do there thinking for them and understand that it will not cause the end of the world, the devil to run the world. In fact I just bet the sun will still shine the trade winds will still blow and snow will still fall.
That just my take on it.
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Permalink Reply by Crystal on
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Strata is right, I know you were just playing devil's advocate, which is good in discussions, I just don't think it would go down like that. There are sometimes, that I think it's good to have morality and ethics in law-making, even if they aren't particularly my own. Why? Because it keeps people in check, it keeps the inmates from running the asylum, and honestly I really wouldn't want to imagine what the human mind can come up with, without the stringent nature religious ethics and morality place on a person.
The thing that irritates the absolute crap out of me, is when people start slinging phrases around like "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" or "Same sex marriage is an abomination to God *chest puff*", and use phrases like that, to say that same sex marriage is wrong. I mean lets be real here, I would much rather, have 2 women married together and raising a family, when those 2 women love each other and aren't abusive to each other in any way shape or form, than have 1 of those women in a heterosexual marriage and hear that she's getting the crap beat out of her nightly, because of X or Y reason. I know that's the worst case scenario, I would say the same for men, it's not just men who are abusive to women, I know some pretty crazy ladies. But then again, I also get pissed off that kids can't say the Pledge of Allegiance in school anymore because it says "One nation, under God" and someone got all over glorified and started screaming that the schools were pushing God down their child's throat.
Some people may think it's fluffy, or maybe it's just because I'm southern..While people might not agree with each other on topics that are important to them, there's no reason to be rude to people because opinions differ. Likewise, there's no reason to have skin so thin you cry the victim at every whim either. I know I'm going off on a tangent kind of, and I'm sorry, this stuff just goes hand in hand for me. It all boils down to how people treat each other. You don't have to go around hand holding and singing kumbaya and be all lovey to everyone, but what the hell happened to a common sense of respect and courtesy.
If people had more respect for one another and actually treated people how they wanted to be treated, I don't think issues like same sex marriage would even come up. People will always have their excuses, but bottom line, in my opinion it comes down to respect. Respect people enough to let them live their own lives. Respect people enough to let them make their own mistakes, especially when those mistakes don't affect you at all. Respect people enough to agree to disagree if your religions don't mesh 100%. Respect people for being different. If we all were the same, it'd be pretty damn boring, I think anyway. When people in general start to think this way, they start to look at themselves and re-evaluate more than pointing the finger at someone else to hide their short comings.
I know it all sounds fluffy, I don't really care, people are free to think what they want. I am and never have been much of a fluffy person. I just believe that everyone deserves a certain amount of respect, until they give you a reason not to. My 0.02, sorry for the long post.
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