Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Selenah Awrin on December 19, 2011 at 22:25

That may be true but my main point is what we know about ancient cultures today is only half of what it used to be. I believe that, That is what I have come to the conclusions after researching certain cultures like ancient egyptians for example. There is lots of information out there but at the same time A-lot of the scholarly resources about that culture feel off to me. It feels off to me for a reason. I feel that there is more to those cultures than what is being documented by scholars because some of its lost in mistranslation and other variables that we really don't have any control over.

Also I am not the one who attacked you nor said draconic magick was ancient. It is in a way because people have been contacting and using dragons in their magick ever since magick exisited. How else do you think we get the myths that we have today? In cultures all over the world there is some myth about a dragon. How would people have seen a dragon? from what I know There is no set tradition on draconic magick, at least not like there is in Traditional Wiccan.

The only thing I agree with jack is the secrecy thing, I don't agree with jack on everything, and I don't like his source either.

I found this site, which I feel explains some things but not everything

 

http://www.fox-moon.com/drag/dragon1.html

Melissa said:

This isn't just any dragon magick,though. There's lots of information sources if you're looking for that kind of thing, people's UPG and stuff. I've stumbled across it many, many times. The topic of discussion is a very specific type of witchcraft that is supposedly ancient.

l

l

There's certain claims that are very bold to make. Your previous Atlantis comment, for example. I think it's fine that you believe in it, but if you started *telling* me it's real you wouldn't be convincing me.

Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:

Also Im not upset with skeptics. I understand, even I want more info on dragon magick but the hard core truth is that there isn't any "scholarly" sources on it.

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Permalink Reply by Selenah Awrin on December 19, 2011 at 22:42

I had already said Jack was wrong to treat Melissa the way he did. I do not agree with it myself. I had stated that. I only agreed with what he said about secrecy. I should have made that more clear, and I am sorry I didn't.

http://www.dragonsfilm.com/

This documentary is on netflix and the reason why I believe dragons exist or existed at one point in time is because there is many myths out there all around in multiple cultures that didn't even have contact with eachother. Scholarly speaking, it is being argued that Dragons may or may not have been a dinosaur. Think about it. Don't dino's look similar to dragons? I suggest watching the documentary.

YarrowSage(the path is changing) said:

You know what, I'll bite. I have to agree with Melissa being a bit skeptical about this existing, because I really haven't heard that much about it and I had to get my "google" on to find anything about it. Also, assuming that anyone who answers your question with some doubt as a jerk who doesn't care will make it very hard for you get any answers from some of the more experienced and educated members on this site. You may like dragons and that's all well and good, but seriously dude, don't get seven different ways of huffy when someone wants you expand on "What do you know about...".

With that out of the way, from what I have personally found within doing a simple search, it looks kinda bleak with regards to specifics, so if you are looking for a specific coven or tradition to work with, you're SOL from what I can find about the topic. Also, to be candid with you, anything that DJ Conway has written a specific "book" about it is 90% BS and 10% stolen goods and her own personal experiences. I don't really think she is that great of an author and she's a "Potato Goddess" away from being Edan McCoy...who is one more Christian rant away from being the biggest fluff of them all...$RW. There are several great books about witchcraft in the beginners section of this site, feel free to check them out and at least think about reading through some of them. It will make you understand the bigger picture within Paganism and why some of us (myself included) are skeptical about all sorts of fluffy nonsense that is unfortunately floating about in the sea of internet.

I found this site: http://www.angelfire.com/d20/gaundariadrag/dragonpower.html and it doesn't look good. Its just general bland fluffy noise that makes newcomers to the craft feel okay with believing whatever they want without any actual facts. Also, the person misspelled "hygiene" and thinks that dragons are watching everything you do without fail, and that they are smarter than Stephen Hawking and super Jesus combined. Sorry Dragons, point goes to Stephen Hawking.

While Pheonix Sun Ra does make a great point about oral traditions through various generations, I will say that investigating those ancient cultures in addition to expanding your knowledge about witchcraft will be far more rewarding than a five second google search. Perhaps looking into ancient Anglo-saxon lore and ancient Asian lore will bring you to a point where you can start working with beings in your craft work.

Finally, I don't care if being difficult is a part of your personality, if you can't act like a rational adult and at least try to understand where the responding party is coming from when they do take the time to answer your question, it's not okay. You don't get to throw a fit and stomp your feet because someone doubts you and what you are asking about. I for one, will not be "just dealing with it" and neither will our Mods.

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Permalink Reply by the horned mod, crununos on December 19, 2011 at 23:40

... just a quick reminder to those that have been around the block a few times more so than others on site and specifically on this topic at hand... please, do try not to get too snarky, regardless of topic and direction of thread it may wander into... there are site rules to abide by, and it would be appreciated if we could keep it sweetly to the point without getting too...errrm... "huffy and puffy" as it were... ;) ... {grins}

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Permalink Reply by Selenah Awrin on December 19, 2011 at 23:53

Agreed :)

crucialprism said:

... just a quick reminder to those that have been around the block a few times more so than others on site and specifically on this topic at hand... please, do try not to get too snarky, regardless of topic and direction of thread it may wander into... there are site rules to abide by, and it would be appreciated if we could keep it sweetly to the point without getting too...errrm... "huffy and puffy" as it were... ;) ... {grins}

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Permalink Reply by Leisha on December 20, 2011 at 7:12

To add to this, there is no consistency about dragons between different cultures of the world. The lore about dragons in China gives them far different personalities, characteristics, histories, lore, and appearances than those in Europe, which are different from those in the Pacific Islands, which are different from those of the Middle East. So for someone to say that there is one "ancient" dragon tradition neglects the fact that some creatures may be lumped together today in European-based "all cultures are fair game" mindsets, but is potentially offensive to people from distinct cultures. I would think that if one wanted to work with dragons, insulting the cultures that brought life to their identity probably would be a foolish way to start. ;)

Ron Stemko(Ameris) said:

Yarrow,did i ever tell you how much i love you and you're work here hun,lol?

 

Expanding on that,It's also to be understood that alot of the lore on dragons come's from both pagan and early christian sources(St. George and the Dragon anyone?). Early christians encountered many various and alien beliefs other then there own,and in some cases,tailored myths and tales to better suit early christian communities of the time. It's evident in the many texts today(Dead Sea Scrolls,Nag Hammadi)that Christianity wasnt a unified belief like everyone thinks,but rather diverse,with Gnostics and other quasi christian beliefs running around on the world scene. When it comes down to it,i think the best thing to do in this case is to scour information that best fits how people thought of dragons then,and then try to link it with how they are perceived in the world today. Look at myths and tales,seperate possible truth(mind you,i say possible very tightly)from far fetched fantasy(Does any of that make sense to you guys at all? If not,i'll gladly clarify)

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Leisha on December 20, 2011 at 7:25

So a movie made by Christian propagandists (the people who brought you Left Behind, John Hagee's "Vanished", and other evangelical Christian mindsets) is what convinced you?

Here's the purpose of the Lalonde's film company: Cloud Ten Pictures [was started] as a means of spreading the Gospel message and producing inspirational Christian films that would help to disband the general consensus that Christian movies are low quality. From the humble beginnings of printing The Omega Newsletter in their basement, to producing and hosting a weekly news-format TV show called This Week in Bible Prophecy, to producing ever-increasingly popular documentaries (Final Warning, Startling Proofs, Last Days) to finally feature film production, the Lalonde Brothers always blazed their own path.

Part of the reason that you found the film so convincing is probably because these guys are masters at conversion propaganda...taking something that the viewer wants to believe and luring them in to an imprintable mindset where they can be programmed to "preach the word". Not saying that is necessarily what has happened here, but that movie would certainly qualify as "not for actual information" in my book. It may be able to get classified as a "documentary" like other anti-pagan "documentaries", but that doesn't make it factual. Caveat emptor.

ETA: What tipped me off was the whole "dinosaurs might have been dragons" creationist line. Because humans and dinosaurs did not co-exist, contrary to the teachings of "creationist thought" (including the idea of dinosaurs on Noah's Ark!), humans wouldn't have been around to see dinosaurs and call them dragons.

Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:

I had already said Jack was wrong to treat Melissa the way he did. I do not agree with it myself. I had stated that. I only agreed with what he said about secrecy. I should have made that more clear, and I am sorry I didn't.

 

http://www.dragonsfilm.com/

 

This documentary is on netflix and the reason why I believe dragons exist or existed at one point in time is because there is many myths out there all around in multiple cultures that didn't even have contact with eachother. Scholarly speaking, it is being argued that Dragons may or may not have been a dinosaur. Think about it. Don't dino's look similar to dragons? I suggest watching the documentary.

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Permalink Reply by Melissa on December 20, 2011 at 9:22

Agreed. Most people I know who work with dragons work with them as a type of energy force.

l

I'm not at all surprised that there are dragons in more than one culture. This is a "dragon fish" that Asian cultures are exposed to(The Asian river gobies specifically) : http://images.canadianlisted.com/nlarge/dragon-goby-fish_5263758.jpg

Curious, no?

l

Then everywhere else we obviously have a plethora of lizards. We did not live at the same time period of dinosaurs, but we have lived with weird looking fish and lizards =)

We take inspiration from what we see and use it to put an image on an idea or form of energy. Symbolism is important to translate complicated things our minds cannot grasp in it's purest form. Sometimes stories are just to tell stories, sometimes they're trying to explain something we can't fully understand.

Lady Morgen/Allergic to FLUFF! said:

Blessings,

OKay, So I think that I will take a bit of a plunge on this discussion.  DJ Conway, hmmm, gotta put this Author in the same category as Grimassi and newer Otter Zell material.   Dinosaurs similar to dragons?  Hmmm, gotta put this one in the category of ahhhhhh No.   Lets look at this from the point of Dinosaurs are freaking OLDE!  Their history PREDATES Humans.  So Humans and Dinosaurs together, even if possible, language and oral interpretation as well as passage from one generation to another, won't support this.  If one does a bit of research into the earliest mentions of Dragons in Mythology or History then one starts to see them come into existence to support the Romantic Fantasy.   This is not to say that the Idea of Dragons does not have energy, it may over time gather energy due to association, hence those that are able to tap into the energy that has been directed at those images.  Are they real?   Hmmmm , on this one, I would have to say No.  Is the energy of Dragons real?  Perhaps.  Unfortunately, That energy is not as ancient as Authors would have one believe.  Deeper research into when the idea of Dragons first appeared will prove interesting.

 

YMMV

Blessings

Morgen

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Permalink Reply by Arimesis on December 20, 2011 at 9:51

Perhaps a tradition passed down from bumper sticker to bumper sticker? "Dabble not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup"?

To allude to some super-secret trad that is unwritten, ancient and passed mouth to ear amounts to little more than waving the red flags of drama and, from my small and limited worldly experience, tripe. I would hope that if such actually did exist, its adherents would not break the tenets of such an ancient and probably oathbound tradition by placing on the internet that which has never been consigned to writing. It strikes me therefore as drama to advertise, defend or glorify such a tradition, which would be paramount to breaking oath. The master of such a craft would be a fool to make such endorsement, and would be better served to secretly search for a student with whom to teach this craft, mouth to ear.

Drama. I despise drama, in all its greasy, conniving and petty forms. True trad or the fevered mind-fart of some megalomaniac, what has been written on this post has been sheer drama. Take a reality pill.  

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Permalink Reply by Selenah Awrin on December 20, 2011 at 10:06

I didn't know it was made by the same people as left behind and all those others. I watched it on netflix and I thought it was an interesting theory that can possibly explain the forum topic. I don't believe that Dino's are dragons, I just threw it out there as a possible explanation. There are many theories on dragons or about dragons, if they have lived or not, etc. I just find it as an interesting perspective.

Leisha said:

So a movie made by Christian propagandists (the people who brought you Left Behind, John Hagee's "Vanished", and other evangelical Christian mindsets) is what convinced you?

Here's the purpose of the Lalonde's film company: Cloud Ten Pictures [was started] as a means of spreading the Gospel message and producing inspirational Christian films that would help to disband the general consensus that Christian movies are low quality. From the humble beginnings of printing The Omega Newsletter in their basement, to producing and hosting a weekly news-format TV show called This Week in Bible Prophecy, to producing ever-increasingly popular documentaries (Final Warning, Startling Proofs, Last Days) to finally feature film production, the Lalonde Brothers always blazed their own path.

Part of the reason that you found the film so convincing is probably because these guys are masters at conversion propaganda...taking something that the viewer wants to believe and luring them in to an imprintable mindset where they can be programmed to "preach the word". Not saying that is necessarily what has happened here, but that movie would certainly qualify as "not for actual information" in my book. It may be able to get classified as a "documentary" like other anti-pagan "documentaries", but that doesn't make it factual. Caveat emptor.

ETA: What tipped me off was the whole "dinosaurs might have been dragons" creationist line. Because humans and dinosaurs did not co-exist, contrary to the teachings of "creationist thought" (including the idea of dinosaurs on Noah's Ark!), humans wouldn't have been around to see dinosaurs and call them dragons.

Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:

I had already said Jack was wrong to treat Melissa the way he did. I do not agree with it myself. I had stated that. I only agreed with what he said about secrecy. I should have made that more clear, and I am sorry I didn't.

 

http://www.dragonsfilm.com/

 

This documentary is on netflix and the reason why I believe dragons exist or existed at one point in time is because there is many myths out there all around in multiple cultures that didn't even have contact with eachother. Scholarly speaking, it is being argued that Dragons may or may not have been a dinosaur. Think about it. Don't dino's look similar to dragons? I suggest watching the documentary.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Selenah Awrin on December 20, 2011 at 10:25

I never said it was an Ancient thing, that was what jack said. The only part I felt he was right on was that was about secrecy in general.  And secondly I despise drama just as much as you do and I'm not the one causing drama. All I am putting out there is theories and possible explanations. Is it Scholarly, I thought so at first but I know now that it wasn't. I'm sorry.

As far as what I personally believe, well I am not going to say what I believe, except that I generally believe anything is possible. For example, Deities, Do we know for sure they exist? no, there is no scholarly research to say that these ancient deities ever existed, except for in the minds and hearts of the people who used to worship them and who are now coming back to modern era. All there is to go by is myth and legends on which deities we worship or talk to and yet they make themselves known to us through visions and spirit quests. And yet we have faith and we can "feel" their existence. We may not be able to see them physically or fully hear them in a physical sense but we feel them. A lot of personal beliefs are about faith and believing without seeing. Any spiritual path has some sort of faith that something exists that may or may not really exist on some level.   That is all I have to say about that, and now I'm pulling myself out of this discussion.

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Permalink Reply by Leisha on December 20, 2011 at 10:30

Hey Pheonix...I don't think anyone thinks that you believe the idea of an ancient dragon religion or whatever. (And if they do think you were on board with that, they need to do a quickie re-read.)

But I hope you don't mind if I snag a concept you bring up here for another discussion thread...I think it would be a neat one. :)

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Permalink Reply by Arimesis on December 20, 2011 at 10:31

Ah, you understand that what I said was not for you. Good.

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