Do you work with/worship/honor ancient deities?
Thanks to Pheonix for an idea on this, and so I'm going to quote a bit from her:
For example, Deities, Do we know for sure they exist? no, there is no scholarly research to say that these ancient deities ever existed, except for in the minds and hearts of the people who used to worship them and who are now coming back to modern era. All there is to go by is myth and legends on which deities we worship or talk to and yet they make themselves known to us through visions and spirit quests.
Perhaps it is because I work with Lord and Lady by epithet instead of by name and lore, but this really jumped out at me.
For those people who work with a specific deity name (Isis, Brigid, Kwan Yin, Pan, Osiris, Shiva, etc.) that comes from a folklore that is many centuries old, do you believe that you're working with the same deity that the people of ancient times who honored deity of the same name worked with? Or instead, is it that you're using the same name but the deity that you work with today is just a different manifestation of the greater divine than what the people of ancient times worked with?
I believe that people can change. I know I'm not the same person now than I was at age 20, and that person is very different from the person that I was at age 10, which is thankfully very different from the person I was at age 1. Within 30+ years, I've changed to the point that I'm not sure me of 30 years ago would recognize me of today. Do our deities change over time, and that's why they still have relevance today--because they've changed? *Can* deity change over time, or because it is deity, it is locked into a fixed existence?
Have the "ancient deities" retreated back into the cosmic divine mix, only to be re-invisioned under the same names, but as different entities altogether? If a priestess of Inanna from several thousand years ago was brought to this era, would she recognize the Inanna worked with by priestesses of Inanna today?
What's your thoughts.... are your deities ancient, or re-invisioned? How does this have bearing on their relevance for today?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Melissa on -
I know some people feel that there is overlap between deities. If a deity wanted to make itself known to two different cultures, they'd have to go about it two different ways.It's still the same now, in a way. Two people can worship the same god/dess, but that deity presents themselves differently to each. The deity may have an entirely different relationship with both person.
l
Deities are also so complex! Take Egyptian mythology for instance. Some of the stories contradict each other. The society of Egypt evolved over time, and through dealing with other cultures. In the instance of Anubis, he can have different fathers depending on which story you read. Is he the sun of Ra or Osiris? Some gods are portrayed in different lights. I don't think this means to do away with the myths, but it certainly says how multi-layered the gods are.
l
Perhaps the stories changed not only because of exposure to other cultures. Perhaps the gods changed, or perhaps the gods were able to show themselves in different ways because the people changed?
l
Everyone has their own UPG when working with the gods, but I don't know if humans are capable of understanding them in their entirety. This is just me rambling and brainstorming!
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Permalink Reply by Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) on -
With ancient egyptian Mythology I also know that there's like 2 or 3 different stories of Isis, I read somewhere she was born from Ra, then another story is she tricked ra to make her into a goddess. I don't know which is true, but I do pray to goddess Isis from time to time. I Had a couple of dreams/visions where I was talking to her face to face, I had a dream where Isis had linked me and my fiances souls and she told me about sex magick. At that time I didn't even know sex magick existed. I had a dream where I went to an Isis temple and could read the old heiroglyphs/runes that were on the temples. I don't remember what was said on the temples but I do remember it had a lot to do with Isis. It's pretty much apparent that Isis is my goddess. However, I haven't dedicated myself to her yet because I still don't know much about egyptian magick and how it pertains to today, Especially with Isis cults because there isn't much information on them. However, I have also had dreams where I have talked to the moon goddess because I just recently started doing moon magick. So are they both the same? They don't feel the same to me. They feel like two completely different entities. To me Isis feels very real to me.
Melissa said:I know some people feel that there is overlap between deities. If a deity wanted to make itself known to two different cultures, they'd have to go about it two different ways.It's still the same now, in a way. Two people can worship the same god/dess, but that deity presents themselves differently to each. The deity may have an entirely different relationship with both person.
l
Deities are also so complex! Take Egyptian mythology for instance. Some of the stories contradict each other. The society of Egypt evolved over time, and through dealing with other cultures. In the instance of Anubis, he can have different fathers depending on which story you read. Is he the sun of Ra or Osiris? Some gods are portrayed in different lights. I don't think this means to do away with the myths, but it certainly says how multi-layered the gods are.
l
Perhaps the stories changed not only because of exposure to other cultures. Perhaps the gods changed, or perhaps the gods were able to show themselves in different ways because the people changed?
l
Everyone has their own UPG when working with the gods, but I don't know if humans are capable of understanding them in their entirety. This is just me rambling and brainstorming!
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Permalink Reply by Melissa on
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Yeah, personally the "all gods are one god" does not appeal to me. I *can*, more understandably, see how particular gods might be 2 or 3 in one.
l
Didn't the Romans feel that all other's gods were only different names for their own set? I might have my information on that wrong.
l
All this being said, I don't worship any god or have a set tradition yet. So I don't have UPG to bring to the table in this discussion.
Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:With ancient egyptian Mythology I also know that there's like 2 or 3 different stories of Isis, I read somewhere she was born from Ra, then another story is she tricked ra to make her into a goddess. I don't know which is true, but I do pray to goddess Isis from time to time. I Had a couple of dreams/visions where I was talking to her face to face, I had a dream where Isis had linked me and my fiances souls and she told me about sex magick. At that time I didn't even know sex magick existed. I had a dream where I went to an Isis temple and could read the old heiroglyphs/runes that were on the temples. I don't remember what was said on the temples but I do remember it had a lot to do with Isis. It's pretty much apparent that Isis is my goddess. However, I haven't dedicated myself to her yet because I still don't know much about egyptian magick and how it pertains to today, Especially with Isis cults because there isn't much information on them. However, I have also had dreams where I have talked to the moon goddess because I just recently started doing moon magick. So are they both the same? They don't feel the same to me. They feel like two completely different entities. To me Isis feels very real to me.
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Permalink Reply by Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) on
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The roman gods were the same as greek gods, like zeus and o hera, just in different name. The roman's took greek culture and slapped on their own twist to things sort to speak. At least from what I remember from a history class.
Melissa said:Yeah, personally the "all gods are one god" does not appeal to me. I *can*, more understandably, see how particular gods might be 2 or 3 in one.
l
Didn't the Romans feel that all other's gods were only different names for their own set? I might have my information on that wrong.
l
All this being said, I don't worship any god or have a set tradition yet. So I don't have UPG to bring to the table in this discussion.
Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:With ancient egyptian Mythology I also know that there's like 2 or 3 different stories of Isis, I read somewhere she was born from Ra, then another story is she tricked ra to make her into a goddess. I don't know which is true, but I do pray to goddess Isis from time to time. I Had a couple of dreams/visions where I was talking to her face to face, I had a dream where Isis had linked me and my fiances souls and she told me about sex magick. At that time I didn't even know sex magick existed. I had a dream where I went to an Isis temple and could read the old heiroglyphs/runes that were on the temples. I don't remember what was said on the temples but I do remember it had a lot to do with Isis. It's pretty much apparent that Isis is my goddess. However, I haven't dedicated myself to her yet because I still don't know much about egyptian magick and how it pertains to today, Especially with Isis cults because there isn't much information on them. However, I have also had dreams where I have talked to the moon goddess because I just recently started doing moon magick. So are they both the same? They don't feel the same to me. They feel like two completely different entities. To me Isis feels very real to me.
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Permalink Reply by Alorer Stefanos (The Gecko) on -
I can't even begin to address all the mistakes in these mere three lines of text. The Roman Gods are NOT just the Greek ones, with different names. Yes, they have many similarities due to the syncretism between the two cultures plus the tendency of the Romans to absorb everything but they are NOT the same. They appear the same in Roman literature because the Roman writers, having Greek education and/or origin, prefered to narrate the Greek myths while substituting their Gods' names for the equivalent Greek ones. In a sense, the Diana of myth is the same with the Artemis of myth but when it comes to attributes, worship etc (i.e. religious practice, which for me is superior to mythology) they are vastly different.
Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:The roman gods were the same as greek gods, like zeus and o hera, just in different name. The roman's took greek culture and slapped on their own twist to things sort to speak. At least from what I remember from a history class.
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Permalink Reply by Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) on
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"In Ancient Roman times, a new Roman mythology was born through syncretization of numerous Greek and other foreign gods. This occurred because the Romans had little mythology of their own and inheritance of the Greek mythological tradition caused the major Roman gods to adopt characteristics of their Greek equivalents.[77] The gods Zeus and Jupiter are an example of this mythological overlap. In addition to the combination of the two mythological traditions, the association of the Romans with eastern religions led to further syncretizations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Mythology#Greek_and_Roman_concep...
I have found this information on several different sites as well. They talk about how Romans adapted Greek culture and myths for their own gods. I was also taught this in college and in high school, So on one hand you are right that maybe they both started out as different gods but when the Romans adapted Greek culture into their own culture and synchronized it with Greek culture. I feel that eventually Roman God's changed and became more like zeus and other Greek gods because that is how the Roman's depicted their God's through Greek Culture. The Romans took Greek mythology and applied it to their gods. They did this so they had more of a Culture. So that is why I still view them as the same. Greek gods are equivalent to the Roman gods. Just because they have slight deviance in worship and such doesn't exactly mean they aren't the same. For example when I was Christian, There's tons of different ways to worship one God and I still view that principle with many of the pantheons that existed or exists. Unless you can give me links and specific sources that tells me differently I will still view it this way.
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Permalink Reply by Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) on
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The study of Roman religion and myth is complicated by the early influence of Greek religion on the Italian peninsula during Rome's protohistory, and by the later artistic imitation of Greek literary models by Roman authors. The Romans were curiously eager to identify their own gods with those of the Greeks (see interpretatio graeca), and reinterpret stories about Greek deities under the names of their Roman counterparts.[2] Rome's early myths and legends also have a dynamic relationship with Etruscan religion, less documented than that of the Greeks. Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/roman-mythology-2#ixzz1hBWcS8lf
http://www.answers.com/topic/roman-mythology-2
The Romans commonly granted the local gods of the conquered territory the same honors as the earlier gods of the Roman state religion. In addition to Castor and Pollux, the conquered settlements in Italy seem to have contributed to the Roman pantheon Diana, Minerva, Hercules, Venus, and deities of lesser rank, some of whom were Italic divinities, others originally derived from the Greek culture of Magna Graecia. In 203 BC, the cult object embodying Cybele was brought from Pessinus in Phrygia and welcomed with due ceremonyto Rome, centuries before the territory was annexed formally.
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Permalink Reply by Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) on
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sorry for posting twice.. didn't mean to do that.
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Permalink Reply by Lark on -
Fixed it for you.
Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:sorry for posting twice.. didn't mean to do that.
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Permalink Reply by Flammeous {De Empress} on -
*~ugh~ I was going to post my response to topic. Now it's all thrown off with quotes and links to Wikipedia and Answers.com. I'm not touching this. I'm just going to post my response and ignore this argument.*
Leisha I think this is a fabulous discussion, maybe too thought provoking as I try to collaborate my thoughts together to answer these questions.
I have no said diety I work with specifically, however I do believe in their existence as energy. In some instances many dieties may appear to have similar energies/aspects or characteristics but there are indeed differences and those should equally be noted. Which simply means overall, I don't believe all god/dess's are one in the same or facets of one entity even if they appear to be absorbed, adopted or adapted from another culture.
With that being said. I see 'religion' and/or spiritual belief system along the lines of developing according to social, cultural behaviors and influences more than anything. So in one instance I could easily answer; no that these are not the same dieites as the ancients because the social, economic needs and cultural patterns has changed since then. On the other hand I could say they are because there is a imprint of ancient (for a lack of a better word) energies that are still attach to these dieites.
So I'm a bit at odds on this. Perplexing yet intriguing mind stimulation Leisha. Thanks!
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Permalink Reply by Lark on
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One of the problems in using Wikipedia as a resource is that it is only as good as the information put in by whoever entered the post...and whoever then came along and changed it to suit themselves. It is not a critical or scholarly source; although it sometimes has some good sources to investigate further. And other on-line sources can be just as unreliable. I never use on-line sources as the be-all of research unless they are coming from an academic source.
You might want to ask Steph for some better resources to support your position since he is both a Greek citizen and a theology major. But your claims that the Roman Gods were nothing but the Greek Gods in Roman dress is flawed.
The Roman Gods were there long before Greek influence on the region. The Roman's were if nothing else great syncretists. They would go into a conquered county, look at the roles the Gods there played and say "Oh, well that is the same as Jupiter..so they are likely filling the same role." They did that in Celtic Britain with Sulis-Athena. It doesn't mean that they then took those Gods as their own, they simply honored the Deities of the lands they conquered (good politics if nothing else).
Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:"In Ancient Roman times, a new Roman mythology was born through syncretization of numerous Greek and other foreign gods. This occurred because the Romans had little mythology of their own and inheritance of the Greek mythological tradition caused the major Roman gods to adopt characteristics of their Greek equivalents.[77] The gods Zeus and Jupiter are an example of this mythological overlap. In addition to the combination of the two mythological traditions, the association of the Romans with eastern religions led to further syncretizations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Mythology#Greek_and_Roman_concep...
I have found this information on several different sites as well. They talk about how Romans adapted Greek culture and myths for their own gods. I was also taught this in college and in high school, So on one hand you are right that maybe they both started out as different gods but when the Romans adapted Greek culture into their own culture and synchronized it with Greek culture. I feel that eventually Roman God's changed and became more like zeus and other Greek gods because that is how the Roman's depicted their God's through Greek Culture. The Romans took Greek mythology and applied it to their gods. They did this so they had more of a Culture. So that is why I still view them as the same. Greek gods are equivalent to the Roman gods. Just because they have slight deviance in worship and such doesn't exactly mean they aren't the same. For example when I was Christian, There's tons of different ways to worship one God and I still view that principle with many of the pantheons that existed or exists. Unless you can give me links and specific sources that tells me differently I will still view it this way.
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Permalink Reply by Flammeous {De Empress} on
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Thank you Lark!
Lark said:One of the problems in using Wikipedia as a resource is that it is only as good as the information put in by whoever entered the post...and whoever then came along and changed it to suit themselves. It is not a critical or scholarly source; although it sometimes has some good sources to investigate further. And other on-line sources can be just as unreliable. I never use on-line sources as the be-all of research unless they are coming from an academic source.
You might want to ask Steph for some better resources to support your position since he is both a Greek citizen and a theology major. But your claims that the Roman Gods were nothing but the Greek Gods in Roman dress is flawed.
The Roman Gods were there long before Greek influence on the region. The Roman's were if nothing else great syncretists. They would go into a conquered county, look at the roles the Gods there played and say "Oh, well that is the same as Jupiter..so they are likely filling the same role." They did that in Celtic Britain with Sulis-Athena. It doesn't mean that they then took those Gods as their own, they simply honored the Deities of the lands they conquered (good politics if nothing else).
Pheonix Sun Ra(Selenah Arwin) said:"In Ancient Roman times, a new Roman mythology was born through syncretization of numerous Greek and other foreign gods. This occurred because the Romans had little mythology of their own and inheritance of the Greek mythological tradition caused the major Roman gods to adopt characteristics of their Greek equivalents.[77] The gods Zeus and Jupiter are an example of this mythological overlap. In addition to the combination of the two mythological traditions, the association of the Romans with eastern religions led to further syncretizations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Mythology#Greek_and_Roman_concep...
I have found this information on several different sites as well. They talk about how Romans adapted Greek culture and myths for their own gods. I was also taught this in college and in high school, So on one hand you are right that maybe they both started out as different gods but when the Romans adapted Greek culture into their own culture and synchronized it with Greek culture. I feel that eventually Roman God's changed and became more like zeus and other Greek gods because that is how the Roman's depicted their God's through Greek Culture. The Romans took Greek mythology and applied it to their gods. They did this so they had more of a Culture. So that is why I still view them as the same. Greek gods are equivalent to the Roman gods. Just because they have slight deviance in worship and such doesn't exactly mean they aren't the same. For example when I was Christian, There's tons of different ways to worship one God and I still view that principle with many of the pantheons that existed or exists. Unless you can give me links and specific sources that tells me differently I will still view it this way.
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