Recently, over at wiccantogether.com there has been a massive influx of newer members claiming to be followers of Christian Witchcraft. It's obvious to all of you here that Christian Wicca cannot possibly exist, but some of these members (who shall remain nameless so no one goes off the deep end by simply seeing their names) claim that merging Christianity and witchcraft, there is no real harm to the witchcraft community, and our strong "meanie, poo poo head" rants about their Epic failing is rude and insensitive...

...Except it isn't. You cannot be a Christian witch. I repeat, you cannot IN NO WAY OR FASHION be a Christian WITCH. Sorry to quickly brandish the capital letters there gang, but I, like many of us here, are super, duper tired of these Jesus loving DERPS trying to drag the word "witch" through the body and blood of Christ. I'm kinda over it and Jesus is too. For reals.

So why the hell is this in a DRW discussion page? Well, I will tell you why, first and foremost I felt that one of the easiest ways for me to really think more about DRW and its impact on the pagan community was to cross examine it in a sense with other paths of witchcraft, even other paths that really aren't true other witchcraft paths. This way, when I am thinking about what makes DRW, well, DRW I am able to have examples readily available for you all to understand where my odd little witchy head is at. Cools? Okay, let's go.

First and foremost, one of the reasons why Aislynn (who is awesome) and I came up with DRW was to try and find a way to explain that witchcraft can be religious. This means that there are deity forms that a witch can work with and worship, there are holidays we follow (granted they are totally 'colored' by the pantheon we work with, like Aislynn works with Celtic deities and I with the Norse), and other things that as DRW's we follow, and we always followed before we really put it in the witchcraft category. For us DRW's, we also follow what is commonly known as outer court Wiccan materials, i.e all of the information that was published by some BTW's and other trads. that has made its way to the massive over exposure point that the blessed internet gives us today. DRW's find value with the Wiccan rede (the correct interpretation...I personally never got the whole "harm none" over abuse even back in my fluffier days) and with other elements that some follow, like the 13 goals of a witch, elemental balance when casting a circle, etc.

With our very name claiming that Witchcraft is religious, its very painful for me to see some tools on another site claiming that they can chuck in Jesus, wear a cross and a pentacle, and give the Goddess her proverbial booting all over again. Christian witches seem to operate under the idea that witchcraft is just spell work, and in some circumstances it is. For example, in parts of Mexico, there are those who are known as Brujas and Brujos ( the masculine form of the title) who are totally fine with hexing you a new one and do not always have a moral code like more European forms of witchcraft (i.e BTW Wica, DRW, and some CIW/TIW's) to stop them from doing this. There isn't a deity that governs or implications that a deity of any kind would intermediate in this hexing. This is witchcraft in the simple form of spell casting, hexing, the pure magical aspect of witchcraft. Feel free to totally correct that last paragraph, and make some arguments.

Christian witches take witchcraft, assume its completely devoid of any religion, and bring Jesus into it. Some feel that there is no need for gender balance in their witchcraft tradition, and if they are trying to interject Christianity into religious witchcraft, they are wrong because in all of my few years being a DRW, I've never met a witch, heck a Pagan for that matter who did not find gender balance a necessity. Sure, there are some who do not feel the need to have the God or the Goddess present there all the time, but on sabbats and other key holidays they follow, most that I know have a masculine and a feminine deity they work with. This is the first fatal flaw of Christian witchcraft; the gender balance needed in religious witchcraft is ripped out and tossed aside like a golden calf. *clunk*

The next fatal flaw of CW, the assumption that their said deity would LIKE to be worshiped in this fashion. God, the Christian one, would NEVER want to be worshiped in a circle in some 16 year old's bedroom as she dances around skyclad and sings kumbaya. Okay, horrid imagery, sorry gang, but that's what is going on. God likes churches, that's why there are so many of them! He loves the pomp and circumstance of mass, service, whatever denomination x,y, or z calls it. He likes the formality of it, the kneeling in prayer of his converts, and the old school way he is honored and (arguably) feared, so why mess with it in a small and sad little circle at 10pm while your parents watch Matlock? It makes no sense.

Other flaws include but are not limited to:

1. Herbal healing is witchcraft, so I can do witchcraft without all of that nasty sacrificing, blood rites, and all of the other "evil pagan" stuff, so even if I do completely biff up with this stuff, I can go to heaven and say "but it was herbal healing St. Peter...scout's honor. Using herbs by themselves, or growing them and using them is herbalism, not witchcraft, you have to utilize them in witchcraft via a spell to make it magical...how is that so hard to understand?

2. Jesus was a witch: Yeah, no I don't think so. Jesus was the son of GOD...you know, the one of the cross! Oh, and this includes Jesus as a magi, magician, or a gnostic as well. Jesus was Jesus and I'd kick ass to hear his side of the story with regards to all this BS floating around about him.

3.God is a girl, and her name is Sophia: Wrong again CW's, Sophia is the name of God's feminine side, his female aligned wisdom if you will. In no way did Christianity as we know it now EVER have a female deity. If it did, I almost would have stayed a part of the church for a half second longer. Lillith was a badass woman, and because her story have been cut out of all versions of the Bible I am aware of, to use it in reference to the modern form of Christianity to even justify a female deity is heresy in any denomination of Christianity. Sorry gang, but they weren't too found of women who thought for themselves back in the day. :S

4. Gnotisicism is Christian witchcraft!: No, Gnosticism is its own wonderful and beautiful thing. Sure, it and Christianity have some common roots, but hiding behind the "mysterious and esoteric" Christianity cousin annoys me. If you are going to call yourself an Esoteric Christian, then call yourself an Esoteric Christian...what does witchcraft have to do with that?! Seriously?!

In Conclusion, Christian witchcraft uses a half assed, under read and poorly learned definitions of Christianity and Gnotisicism which causes harm to both paths, which then gets merged into a religious witchcraft path and is all justified under the fluffy mentality of acceptance and love and all that unicorn poo. Even if one was to be Christian and claim to use a form of witchcraft without any deity in it, Jesus is not gonna just let you mess up his dad's house, especially when said holy father is all powerful and hates you dancing around skyclad in your bedroom in your "circle" you cast from your $RW witch kit *shakes fist*. It cannot, and will never work. The last thing the Pagan community wants is to deal with this massive influx of common sense failing that cannot even be remotely validated by someone (read me) who hasn't even been a Catholic for the last 8 years. I'm totally fine with admitting I am not completely will versed in all denominations of Christianity, but when someone like myself who has been out of the loop finds big honkin' holes in your religion, you sir have an issue.

*lightsaber sheathed* I hope you enjoyed this little walk and talk with me. BB, Yarrowsage.

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Replies to This Discussion

Love love love this post!!!
I totally agree Thorn, and thanks for the compliments you guys. If you are still afraid of any "wrath" from your old religion's deities, then you can't practice or even learn about your new religion without that old POV haunting you until the end. I just wanna tell these people to let go and embrace one or the other, or to claim agnostic for a while.
As a religious witch who is not DRW, I don't have a problem with Christian Witchcraft any more than I do with DRW. In my view, they're just two additional aspects of what would fall under theistic forms of witchcraft. What DRW folks do is VERY different from the form of religious witchcraft that I practice, and yet I think that DRW should have a right to exist and call itself both religious (as I think it is) and witchcraft (as I think it is).

Religious witchcraft exists---it's called TIW, and we've been around for quite a long time. Recently, some solitary practitioners felt the need to have it recognized that they can be religious, and that's okay. But who is to say *what* religion falls in the R in DRW. If that religion is Christianity, does that make it less of a religion than whatever newly created religion falls in R? In my view, it doesn't. Christian Witchcraft, of which I've known just as many serious and dedicated practitioners as I've known fluffernutters would fit as DRW. The only way to avoid that is to really define what the R is in DRW more than just "religious". And at that point, doesn't DRW lose some of what it was created for? But how can it be said that Christianity is not a religion?
More importantly, the way your own definition is written, it isn't at odds with Christian Witchcraft. If you want to be exclusionary to forbid Christian Witches (and then I assume that Jewitches, Islamic or Sufi-based witchcraft, and other non-pagan witches would also be out), then you'll probably need to significantly revise your definition. For instance:

1. A belief in a balanced Divinity. That could be seen through hard polytheism, soft polytheism, monotheism (with the one deity having masculine and feminine aspects that are equally balanced), duotheism, and pretty much any "ism" other than atheism and agnosticism (a case can be made for agnosticism, but it will be rare, I feel).

Given the current trend in Christianity for the honoring of Father-Mother God, this one is met.


2. Adherence to The Wiccan Rede as it is written. This does not imply that it is "law" or infallible. We cannot possibly ever "harm none". We must strive to, however. We must strive to not harm others emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc. just as we must strive not to harm ourselves in the same manner. These probably include harm by inaction and harming nature and the natural order of the universe. Elsewhere, it can be interpreted differently than it has been historically, depending on the practitioner.


Again, there's nothing in Christianity that is at odds with the Rede.

3. As above, one must also follow any tenets laid out in The Charge of the Goddess (i.e. "All acts of love are my rituals") and The Charge of the God. (These are dissected in a DRW frame of mind in the thread linked above)


Again, nothing in Christianity at odds with the Charge of the Goddess any more than it would be odds with other non-BTW forms of witchcraft.

4. The Threefold Law may be interpreted by the individual practitioner in a way that suits their personal practice or thrown out as an outdated teaching device. This is not as central to our faith.


Since the Threefold Law was inspired by Christianity, it's not surprising that it would still fit.

5. Adhere to the 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief.


Again, unless you're in an ultra conservative form of Christianity, nothing at odds there.

6. Adhere to the 13 Goals of a Witch


See #5.

7. Practice witchcraft – this should be obvious from the title, but the definition of “witchcraft” varies widely. One must determine their definition and stick to it. For example, some define witchcraft as the casting of spells while others define it more along the lines of “any act of energy manipulation (i.e. casting the circle, casting a spell, etc.) or any act of invoking/evoking (i.e. calling the quarters, calling deity to be present in a circle, aspecting, etc.)”

Again, nothing at odds with Christianity there.

So which of the rules of DRW is a Christian Witch breaking?
Agreed! and brilliant Leisha.


Leisha said:
As a religious witch who is not DRW, I don't have a problem with Christian Witchcraft any more than I do with DRW. In my view, they're just two additional aspects of what would fall under theistic forms of witchcraft. What DRW folks do is VERY different from the form of religious witchcraft that I practice, and yet I think that DRW should have a right to exist and call itself both religious (as I think it is) and witchcraft (as I think it is).

Religious witchcraft exists---it's called TIW, and we've been around for quite a long time. Recently, some solitary practitioners felt the need to have it recognized that they can be religious, and that's okay. But who is to say *what* religion falls in the R in DRW. If that religion is Christianity, does that make it less of a religion than whatever newly created religion falls in R? In my view, it doesn't. Christian Witchcraft, of which I've known just as many serious and dedicated practitioners as I've known fluffernutters would fit as DRW. The only way to avoid that is to really define what the R is in DRW more than just "religious". And at that point, doesn't DRW lose some of what it was created for? But how can it be said that Christianity is not a religion?
And just for clarification....because you created this system and named it, you have every right and responsibility to say who does or does not belong in it. The simplest solution would be in your code of what makes a DRW, no Christians are allowed, although that does bring up all sorts of complications. Would a CUUPs member be kicked out of DRW if they attend the UU services? What about a Messianic Jew? Why just Christians and not members of any other religion (i.e., Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Falun Gong, etc.)? Is it possible to be DRW and practice any other religion? If that's the case, then how do you define the religion of witchcraft? What deities are acceptable DRW deities and what deities are off-limits? Is someone kicked out of DRW if they are called to service of another deity?

Is the end reason simply because you don't like Christians and/or have hangups with your own previous Christian path? (And if so, that's absolutely valid... as long as you own it.)

Because this form of practice is so new, it will take a lot of time and energy to get it well codified...but as it does, how much joy and amazement can come about from the discovery! Here's to the journey!
Leisha...you have brought up some very valid points...I would think the hang up would be specifically with Christian Wicca as opposed to Christian Witchcraft...It seems that many want to keep witchcraft as strictly pagan and when you start bringing other religions into the equation, many find offense in it.
Hi Jennifer,

What about Hindu Gods, The Gods of the Celts, The Egyptian Gods, How is incorporating these Gods any different from incorporating Jesus, and his God. Some people who are buddhist might find offense in so many witches using buddha in their practice. I know my husbands family would.

What do you think?


Jennifer said:
Leisha...you have brought up some very valid points...I would think the hang up would be specifically with Christian Wicca as opposed to Christian Witchcraft...It seems that many want to keep witchcraft as strictly pagan and when you start bringing other religions into the equation, many find offense in it.
I see what you are saying Tawny...that is a hard one to answer...it seems that witchcraft in general embraces so many different spiritual philosophies (Buddhism, Hinduism, and such) and I am sure that many who practice those religions in their purest form would be offended to know that parts of their religion are being used in the practice of witchcraft....of course I am so new to paganism as it is that I would not be even remotely an authority on anything:)...I am just going by what I observe...
Its just freakin disrespectful to both religions! And it makes me so agitated to see these loons wobbling around with their over inflated 'I am right and you are wrong and immoral' bubbles! XO I know several christians (many family) and they would be mortified if anyone wobbled up to them and claimed to be a "christian witch" . I myself am annoyed that they just forget that the Gods and Goddesses EVER had anything to do with witchcraft, and its rituals and holidays, and paste Jesus over their faces like a damn stamp! (takes a deep breath) That has been coming on for awhile thanks to WT lol . I feel better now. (floats away)


The problem with this Amanda, is that witchcraft is not a religion, it is a practice there fore making it possible to incorporate christian believes and deities into the practice.
Amanda said:
Its just freakin disrespectful to both religions! And it makes me so agitated to see these loons wobbling around with their over inflated 'I am right and you are wrong and immoral' bubbles! XO I know several christians (many family) and they would be mortified if anyone wobbled up to them and claimed to be a "christian witch" . I myself am annoyed that they just forget that the Gods and Goddesses EVER had anything to do with witchcraft, and its rituals and holidays, and paste Jesus over their faces like a damn stamp! (takes a deep breath) That has been coming on for awhile thanks to WT lol . I feel better now. (floats away)
I think the idea behind the Religious aspect was that we recognized that religious withcraft traditions have a religious framework they work with, ie. a concept of deity and other things like that, and it seems to me that Christianity, or rather in most cases, the flawed definition of Christianity, like Gnosticism and Christianity being shoved together as a means to explain the more "mystical" aspects of Christianity so it can work within a witchcraft frame work is the issue here.

I have no issue with Christianity myself, in fact the reason why I am trying to make the case is that so many Christians have clearly expressed that any kind of witchcraft, even religious like DRW or BTW, has no place within Christianity as a religion. Christians, the many I know I am totally fine with, but like Amanda stated it causes issues with both since to be a Christian in the modern sense of the word, you cannot believe anything outside of your denomination's interpretation of the Bible. Like for example, Lutherans believe that anything outside of the Bible, like the books that didn't make it into the Bible, are not up for worship and should not be followed since they are not part of the Bible...they more or less didn't make the cut. It's lame and Christians miss out on a lot, but it's a part of their faith they have accepted for the most part. And if they haven't, then its their personal deal, but overall in the religion, you stick to the Bible as far as interpretation of the Christian religion.

As far as what deities are acceptable, I think that we strive more for gender balance, that you have to have both a feminine and masculine aspect of God. Many Christian witches either ignore the Goddess, or they try to bring in Mary, Lilith, or another Goddess and completely forget that GOD, the big dude upstairs is not really keen on sharing his worship time with any other deity, hence that whole "Thou shall have no other gods besides me" bit. Sure you can bring up Jesus, but Jesus is really closer to a demi-god, he was made a man after all and did live on earth, something which best to the knowledge of the most learned scholars in Christian mythos, God never did. DRW's are fine with using any deity, but the deity in which you are working with needs to come from a religious tradition that doesn't have such a negative view on witchcraft, which Christianity has.

DRW's for the most part are solitary, however since Aislynn and Brae have a circle they are working with, we felt that it would be best to say that its solitary for the most part, but if a group of DRW's wish to get together and form a circle, then by all means they should (as long as they all can handle it and aren't daft about it). Also, any DRW who later on joins a trad coven would then be a BTW (for example) or if they decide to find a kindred to work with, they would be an Asatruarist (totally sorry if I completely butchered that name!) or what have you. Aislynn and I wanted it to be clear that DRW isn't just a waiting period, but rather a serious dedication to a Wiccan inspired witchcraft practice which has (or rather is really working towards) to have meaning to the practitioner and the flexibility to not be so ridged where it's a tradition set in stone.

I hope this answers some of your questions Leisha, and thanks for bringing up the points.

Leisha said:
And just for clarification....because you created this system and named it, you have every right and responsibility to say who does or does not belong in it. The simplest solution would be in your code of what makes a DRW, no Christians are allowed, although that does bring up all sorts of complications. Would a CUUPs member be kicked out of DRW if they attend the UU services? What about a Messianic Jew? Why just Christians and not members of any other religion (i.e., Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Falun Gong, etc.)? Is it possible to be DRW and practice any other religion? If that's the case, then how do you define the religion of witchcraft? What deities are acceptable DRW deities and what deities are off-limits? Is someone kicked out of DRW if they are called to service of another deity?

Is the end reason simply because you don't like Christians and/or have hangups with your own previous Christian path? (And if so, that's absolutely valid... as long as you own it.)

Because this form of practice is so new, it will take a lot of time and energy to get it well codified...but as it does, how much joy and amazement can come about from the discovery! Here's to the journey!

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